Friday, August 21, 2009

The Multiple Personality Excuse


The idea that some unnamed medical professionals had diagnosed Maciel with multiple personality disorder was floated when the Legion first announced existance of the mistress and daughter. It was never mentioned again until the highly enlightened Errazuriz blurted it out the media, with no proof, in Chile.

In private, high ranking officials of the Legion have denied that any doctors made such a statement.

But current Legionaries and members of the Regnum Christi will look for any life-line at this point.

More thoughts from Peter Vere:

In a story circulating South American and European media, Santiago's Cardinal Francisco Javier Errázuriz appeared nationally on Chilean TV and said: "Los médicos cercanos al padre Maciel han dicho que tenía dos personalidades distintas. No solamente un tema de doble vida. En un momento era el fundador y en otro era un pobre hombre."

Here's how a Spanish-speaking reader translates His Imminence's words: "Doctors close to Father Maciel have said that he had two distinct personalities. [....] In one moment he was a founder, and in another he was a poor man." [...]

That being said, there's serious questions to be asked if the dual-personality explanation is taken at face value. Why do no one in the Legion notice Fr. Maciel was switching back and forth between personalities? If it's because he was never the "hombre" when around the Legion, then how was he able to switch so conveniently between personalities? And how sure is the Legion leadership that the Hombre Maciel personality never played a role int eh founding of the Legion of Christi/ Regnum Christi movement?

I'm afraid this attempt at an explanation raises more questions than it resolves.

106 comments:

Anonymous said...

Exactly. Even if this preposterous story were true, the fact that the priests around Maciel couldn't tell anything was wrong from his strange behavior would mean something is seriously wrong with the order. I can't see how LC supporters think this ridiculous lie makes them look better.

It IS good for a laugh, though. Holy cow, how stupid they must think the rest of the world is. This theory is almost as good as the one about predatory females masturbating Maciel to orgasm while he was in a coma (is that even possible? Did they crush up some Viagra and put it into his feeding tube first?) to get his sperm to turkey-baster-impregnate themselves. Thanks for the visual, Legionaries!

Besides, what predatory female would choose the ugly MACIEL for a sperm donor? Hello?

Anonymous said...

Its good to notice that un pobre hombre is not the same as un hombre pobre - that is to say the meaning of poor here does not mean poverty or lack of money, but poor as in unfortunate.

I agree that if would have been more obvious if Maciel really was pschyzophrenic or had a dual personality. Such unfortunate people do not choose when or where they are which personality they inhabit.

It would be much truer to say that he had a double identity. This would be consistent with malignant narcism, not psyhczophrenia.

Anonymous said...

Double personality?? Stupid. Did anyone see maciel in mass with his mustache?????

Anonymous said...

Further pschzyophrenia (multiple personality disorder) does not explain the multiple false passports maciel used.

Anonymous said...

Don't medical doctors have an obligation to treat people who are mentally ill or report them to authorities? Would an MD close to Maciel be professionally negligent knowing what he did? Did he tell anyone else? When did he notice Maciel's mental issues? ... OR IS THIS JUST A CONVENIENTLY-FABRICATED STORY?

Anonymous said...

Nobody yet has commented on Pete Vere's latest entry (http://catholiclight.stblogs.org/archives/2009/08/priests-like-so.html). He nailed it as usual.

I hope "Edmond Ritter" takes it to heart, and prayerfully decides whether or not he really wants to be a "good priest" (read: Real Man) by demonstrating the moral courage necessary.

Anonymous said...

Is there an email where I can send you a private message?

Thanks!

Anonymous said...

From February 4th 2009 and following, taking a somewhat more serious attitude than some of you -- because the subject is serious and deserves a serious attitude -- I have visited lots of websites and consulted psychiatric manuals like the standard DSM-IV-TR, the standard psychiatric diagnostic manual in the USA that's been adopted by most of the world. It lists DID, that is, dissociative identity disorder, as a reality well known for many years, though it has changed names. For theoretical reasons, some prefer to call it MPD (multiple personality disorder).

If you go and check the wikipedia on DID, you will find that there is a debate as to whether or not it "exists", but if you go further and go to the "Skeptic's Dictionary" (link at the bottom of the wikipedia article), it will take you to an article clarifying that the debate is on whether or not the "person" is a unified or fragmentary reality. In other words, psychiatrists do not argue about the existence of DID as a complex of symptoms, but as to it's sense and causality, philosophy if you will. So DID is a reality with overwhelming evidence to prove it, the articles cited claim that there are thousands of known cases.

But did MM suffer this disease? That's what I was told on February 3, 2009, by our superior in Rome. I think I was as suspicious as anyone writing on this blog. And I had every reason to be. In one sentence he told us that the MM had had a daughter out of wedlock, contradicting the Legionary lie that his accusers were all insane liars, a lie that I too had swallowed and spread like many others (such as the honorable Fr John Richard Niehaus, RIP). In the next sentence he told us that MM had DID. In all fairness to my superior, he did not say, "MM had DID and therefore was guiltless". He said, "MM had DID, and therefore his multiple lives make some sort of sense." But that's why I did this research, and bought the expensive psychiatric manuals. But what finally convinced me was when the psychoanalyst that Paul Lennon (from ReGain) referred me to, without hesitation told me "He is obviously DID". She is a German lady in her 60s, of Protestant background and leaning toward Buddhism in her religion. She has absolutely no personal interest in the Catholic Church, and positively dislikes the Legion as a sect. She would not lie to me about this. She said, "He is obviously DID." He is a textbook, standard case, easy diagnosis. You can figure that out for yourselves in ten minutes if you visit the wikipedia and look at the section on diagnosis.

What point is there in speculating whether MM was culpable in full or in part for his heinous wicked acts? It exposes us to temptations to judge evil of someone when we do not know that he was in his depths fully culpable, or even partially, and then we will have sinned and have to account for it on the day of judgment. Not a useful activity. Not very Christian.

If we really knew what hell was, I think your wishing MM eternal damnation would be seen as coldblooded as any act of sodomy he ever committed. No, worse.

If that really is your attitude, then you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

He did evil. He was a sinner. His victims need justice and mercy. And we, you and I on this website, also need mercy. That MM is a disgrace and a sinner is all we need to know. Leave his judgment in God's hands.

Most sincerely, Edmond Ritter

Anonymous said...

Dear ER:

I for one, while believing, on the basis of the evidence before us, that MM was a an arrogant, corrupt, hypocritical fornicating liar who also probably abused drugs and young adolescents in his care still hope that he is in heaven or that he will get there. I would never wish Hell on anyone.

However, I would say that the issue of multiple personality disorder, while maybe removing some moral guilt from MM, actually makes things far worse for the congregation. Apart from the issues already raised about how the work of the congregation was influenced by the more corrupt personality, how can others not have seen or known about this? It implies a significant level of willful neglect on the part of his closest circle.

I have a questions for you.

Are the pictures of MM down off the walls in Rome? I have just heard that the pictures are STILL up in the house near where I live (not the US, elsewhere in Europe). The LCs told me to my face 2 months ago that they were all gone. They aren't. What's the situation in Rome?

Anonymous said...

You are right about us ER, except none uf us are still in the sect like you.
It takes courage and common sense to get out. Dont know if you have any.
And as for me i dont wish MM ( Mr. Mustache) eternal damnation. I wish for the victims an apology from your sect and superiors. I wish Pope Benedict order your sect to desapear. I wish legionaries to be brave and face their superiors with the truth instead of hiding with fear. I wish MM was alive and young so I could kick his pervert ass.

Anonymous said...

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.

Let em repeat that in spanish:

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.

Fuck that.

No.

The LC ALWAYS makes excuses for its superiors. Father picks his favorites to play fubito "Porque le ayuda a descansar".

Br. X gets to watch movie all day "because it helps him rest". or "that's how he rests". Or any of that shit.

Fr. John Devlin gets drunk off of Jameson, Fr. Garza eats $30 proscuitto, MM gets to beat off to pictures of the Jonas Brothers "because it helps him".

Fuck all that- stop the two tiered system. Stop the bullshit where the fag superiors get to chose their favorites, give preferential treatment, some get to collect purificators and others shovel shit.

No- no excuses. No reasons. Because when WE were late for morning prayers, we got a penance. When Fr. Meade in Cheshire never made it to solemn rosary because he decided to play soccer longer and then watch a movie, it was OK.

Fuck this story, shove it up their ass- no, no more lies, no more excuses. Fuck maciel and his damned legion- yes, God damn the legion and its evil ways that want us to "understand". Fuck that. No.

Never.

-9 years of lies

Still RC - For Now, Anyway said...

Hey ER, you have generous access to wikipedia, the internet in general, funds to purchase expensive psychiatric manuals AND the resources to go consult a German psychiatrist? And you are in touch with ReGain? AND you are in the Legion?

This is not your father's Legion of Christ.

Pardon MY skepticism but you sound more like a Jesuit. In any case you don't sound like a legionary - who are you really?

Anonymous said...

"From February 4th 2009 and following, taking a somewhat more serious attitude than some of you -- because the subject is serious and deserves a serious attitude --"

Please, no need to be so condescending. You quite frankly have no idea how seriously any of us take this issue or how much our lives have been affected by this evil man and his complicit order. If you can't or won't handle the fact that a little levity and flippancy is all that keeps some of us from screaming out in anger, then perhaps you are not ready for forums like this.

I personally couldn't care less if Maciel had multiple personalities (which I don't buy for a minute). Maybe Jeffrey Dahmer and John Wayne Gacy did too, for all I know. It does not in the least subract from the horror of the what he has done to thousands of people and from the evil of the order he created. If Ted Bundy founded an organization to provide him a constant stream of available victims (and money, to boot), would I give a flying fiddle what his psychiatric problems were when it came to evaluating the organization he started? Um, not really.

Why does it make you feel better to think you are part of an order founded by an evil deranged child molester with multiple personality disorder vs. just a plain evil child molester? Either way, the order was founded in such a way to further his abuse and allow his deviancy to flourish. The outcome is pretty much the same. Only the order looks worse in the first scenario because if he was just evil, at least they might be able to use the excuse that he was so devious they just didn't have a clue. In the second scenario, you have superiors who knew this man was psycho pedophile and still allowed him uninhibited access to money and sexual prey, all while proclaiming him to be a saint and forcing the LC priests to ask the question "What would MM do?" every time they were faced with the most minute decision.

I don't wish hell on anybody, but I won't sit in judgment on victims who do. If that man had molested me or my children, I have no doubt I'd want to see him burn. Just being honest.

To the anonymous asking about photos of Maciel. I don't know about those, but I do know the Legion is still selling dear old Nuestre Padre's dating advice to the young. Can you even imagine? STILL SELLING SEX ADVICE TO TEENAGERS WRITTEN BY A PEDOPHILE.

Anonymous said...

Edmond,

I remain skeptical that MM really had DID, for the simple reason that he seemed to be able to turn it on and off at will. (This is all with the caveat I am not a psychiatric professional, so take it for what it's worth.) It is also possible that he might have had some other personality disorder (Narcissist, Sociopath, OCD, etc.) that could have diminished his subjective culpability. And he might have repented and confessed before he died -- I really don't know. I won't presume to judge the state of his soul.

And to a certain extent, that is a moot point anyway -- he is dead, and so he can't continue to harm anyone directly.

But his order lives on, and the superiors in the LC/RC do bear responsibility for their actions. It is incomprehensible that high-ups in the Legion did not know about MM's problems over the years, and knowingly bore false witness (and encouraged others to do the same) against those who credibly accused MM. They continue to operate with oppressive rules that show lack of respect for the human dignity of those in their charge. They take in earnest and pious young people and malform them to corrupt their consciences -- they leave them believing that the ends justify the means, so long as it benefits the building of the "kingdom". They rob young men and women of valuable formative years, years during which they should have been learning life skills to support themselves and their families, because they claimed to speak for God in telling them they were called for all eternity, and them casting them off like yesterday's newspaper years later. The foundation of Legion is corrupt, and I doubt that there is anything in it that is worth salvaging.

Please remember that the good things that you find in LC are just Catholicism 101. You can still be a good Catholic and a good priest without the Legion. I hope you can find the moral courage to do the right thing.

Anonymous said...

I also find it incomprehensible that the LC superiors had no clue MM was a fuck.

If they knew- and did nothing- they are proven to be incapabale of continuing in positions of authority.

If they did NOT know- that MM was stealing million, stoned, a father, etc- then they are STILL proven incapable of positions of authority.

Either way they have to go. All of them.

Teenage dating manuals written by a sex pervert. That is almost a Cohen Brothers plot.

Oh if only he had published a guide "Funneling money for the Kingdom" and "A Gospel guide to great sex" and "How to dupe a Pope". They would be great for a study group.

You all are too kind- I do wish maciel hell and damnation. Sorry, I do. Because that's where he sent so many people. And if the big three mexican mafiosos aren't careful they can join him for an eternal merienda cena of sulpher and fire. Maybe that fucking band will play "La Bamaba" again. That was hell enough.

Why didn't I spit in their sobados or spooge in their Barrys tea.... if only I could time travel.

-9 years of lies

Anonymous said...

Dear anonymous, who writes,

"Are the pictures of MM down off the walls in Rome? I have just heard that the pictures are STILL up in the house near where I live (not the US, elsewhere in Europe). The LCs told me to my face 2 months ago that they were all gone. They aren't. What's the situation in Rome?"

In the Roman college, the pictures of MM are all down, and for at least a year. Recently, there was the attempt by a superior to have a "beautiful" statue of MM made and placed in another one of the LC buildings. There was a slight controversy in that community and the sculpture was turned into one of Our Lady at prayer. Thank goodness. The older fathers still love MM, and you and I will never change them. "He taught them to love Christ." Maybe it makes you sick to the stomach, but that is, for example, my novice instructor who has said things like that to me and more than once. That's the situation. ER

Anonymous said...

"The older fathers still love MM, and you and I will never change them. "He taught them to love Christ.""

And don't forget that some of these older fathers (I know some of them, and I know what you are talking about) were probably forced to masturbate the old lech in the name of papal dispensation. To have to face reality at this point in their lives is probably too much for their psyches to bear.

These victims need help. And I don't see any being sent their way. As I mentioned before, I think a lot of these older priests who knew Maciel when they were children (and may very well have been sexually molested by him) will probably be dead within the next few years. The psychological and physical stress of this mess will be too much for them.

Anonymous said...

To several of you...

- Yes, we are a sect, or at least sect-like. Absolutely right. Only thing we have going here is our members' sincere adherence to the Holy Father. If the Legion by some miracle survives this crisis, it will be in large part due to that.

- Someone is scandalized by my access to internet and money? How do you explain that I am not fully brain washed? As for being really a Jesuit, you may be unto something. Father John Hardon, S.J. drew me to a Jesuit vocation by his holiness of life and teaching. But when I asked him if I should try his order, he said, "I would be responsible for the loss of your vocation, and possibly your faith. Go to the Legionaries!" How do you like that?! And if you really need to know whether I am an LC or not, then you make me suspicious. The only one who would really need to know that would be one of my superiors so as to discipline me, or run me out of the congregation. And you might say that's a good thing, but first I want to hear Benedict's report on the Legion! If you are legitimate, write me at the email I've given, a7316fr@yahoo.com. Think of a way you can prove to me your not an LC superior!

-- There is someone who protests my condescending tone because I said this is a serious issue etc.. My condescension was provoked by the lightness with which some not all took the idea that MM was DID. I do not feel better or worse about his being DID. I am interested in establishing or disestablishing a FACT. Is it a fact or is it not a fact that MM had DID? Importance? Well, his DID could have influenced the formation in the Legion. I myself have been abused psychologically over the last 2 years in the LC, and reflecting on this and on his DID, I have come to the conclusion, "Hey, they were trying to induce dissociation in me too!!!" From this connection, I start to see the formation program as intentionally inducing this mental sickness, and not only that, but selecting its leadership on the basis of this sickness. And it's not just about pedophilia. It's also about financial and other types of corruption. Far from using DID as an excuse, it seems to me that it is important as a key to understanding the mess we are in, and why and how we are such a sect. I hope you can pardon my condescension above. I too get mad, you know.

-- Greetings to the inestimable Mr 9 years of lies. I am seeing less cuss words per sentence. I hope this does not mean your feeling worse? Un fuerte abrazo, caro hermano.

Edmond Ritter

Anonymous said...

ER, Please don't bait 9 Years into cursing more. It's clearly a less-than-mature way to express himself, but I say it's best to try to ignore his manner of expression and look instead to what he is trying to express. Don't feed troll-like behavior.

Anonymous said...

I am not scandalized by your access to the internet and to money, but it does seem to demand some sort of explanation. How is someone who has to rely on the community for so much as a new toothbrush able to purchase DSM-IV?

Anonymous said...

Troll-like behavior. That's rich.

Now I'm the bad guy. Except last I say I never raped young girl or had minor seminarians jerk me off...

I won't say fuck anymore, promise. No fucking way.

-9 years of lies

Anonymous said...

Regarding Maciel and DID, I'm not convinced. I've heard true cases of DID are not only rare, but that people with this condition live very disconnected and random lives. They wake up and have no idea where they are, they can't hold steady jobs, etc... It would be quite remarkable that someone with DID could build such an organization like MM did. And furthermore, it would be readily apparent to those around him that he was constantly disoriented. My vote goes with being a sociopath.

ANON

Anonymous said...

9 years of lies - if you are for real, then please seek to forgive. You are only hurting yourself. Your hatred does nothing to those that you hate. It just crushes your soul. You don't have to feel forgiveness, you just have to will it.

I also think it's a dreadful thing to wish hell on anybody. I don't care what pain you went through. If you meant it then you should be ashamed of yourself.

Anonymous said...

In private, high ranking officials of the Legion have denied that any doctors made such a statement.

Is this really true? What is your source? Which official said this?

This was the explanation I was given the day the news broke. Was I lied to? (gasp)

Anonymous said...

StillRC and Mr.Ritter,

Just leave the Jesuits alone. Your fixation with them shows you are pure products of your pathetic congregation. Jesuits are onto more important things (and don't giver a shit about all this, anyhow).

Anonymous said...

"I am interested in establishing or disestablishing a FACT. Is it a fact or is it not a fact that MM had DID?"

I'm curious as to how you think you are going to be able to establish this as a fact at this juncture? He is dead, and there is no objective psychologist who can evaluate him at this point. Why would we believe ANY bs the Legion says about it or medical records they might manage to pull out of their magical-thinking hats? You can't really diagnose a dead man reliably, and we can't believe a thing that comes from the Legion.

I don't find the logic in your thinking. MM suffered from multiple personalities. Therefore he might have designed his order specifically to create priests with multiple personalities?

Any abuser can cause dissociation in his victims. Rape victims often dissociate in order to deal with the trauma of the situation. The presence or absence of multiple personality disorder in the rapist has nothing to do with the dissociation of the victim. It's the ABUSE that causes victims to dissociate, NOT the presence of mental illness in the perp.

Whatever Maciel's motivations and/or mental state, he set up the order in such a way that it is very abusive to the human person. Victims of abuse often suffer mental trauma. The mental trauma (sometimes dissociation---which is not the same thing as DID) they suffer is attributable to the abuser insofar as he perpetrated the abuse on them, NOT insofar as he suffered from some mental problem himself.

Another exLegionary said...

I was told again and again by superiors that infidelity to the rule CAUSED schizophrenia (they meant DID), and other forms of mental illness. This was their mystically-inspired psychological knowledge. No study or practice needed!

Does it account for Mr Moustache's behavior or is it a result?

Doesn't really matter, because the end result is he had no business founding or leading a congregation in the Catholic Church.

Another exLegionary said...

oh, and 9 years of lies, fuckin' A man, fuckin' A.

Anonymous said...

Oh, please! Like God doesn't know when we are so angry we want to see somebody burn forever. Totally human response to abuse and cruelty, and God knows it. No need to piously remind somebody it's not nice to say. God knows what is in our hearts, what we have gone through, and what we are truly feeling. Keeping your mouth shut just so the pious don't get offended is ridiculous in this kind of forum.

Like Giselle, I am relieved to see people coming out of that cult expressing their true feelings. Ugly situations call for strong language. Seriously, what do you expect a victim to say? Darn, being abused like that really bites? Shoot? Fudge? Honestly!

Grownups should be able to handle strong language---yes, sometimes foul language---coming from outraged victims without needing to piously correct them. Geez.

My hope for all of those abused by this horrible man and his order is that they can healthily express their anger and rage and one day be able to process it in such a way that they can be happy, functioning people finally free of the corruption of LC. There IS no appropriate "timetable".

Still RC - For Now, Anyway said...

Anon (who thinks I insulted the Jesuits) -

Please allow me to clarify - what I meant was that ER's access to medical text books, time for research etc. at a minimum seemed to contradict the Legionary norms. Sounds more like the academic pursuits of the Jesuits. Listen, at this point I would greatly prefer if the LC's were to be taken over by the Jesuits because the latter could teach them a thing or two about critical thinking (surely ER would agree with me, as he seems to be close to Fr. Hardon, SJ).

I haven't followed ER's testimony all that closely but it's a rare thing for an LC to be spending a lot of free time looking through texts and conversing on the internet. Hence my suspicion he's something else. Either that or the LC is in complete disarray and oversight isn't what it used to be. OR he's a plant and apologist put in place by his superiors to convince the cyberworld of the LC's spin on reality. Forgive me for thinking this last possibility but I witnessed this phenom on a couple of other blogs.

However, if ER really is a legionary and is telling the truth about what he's witnessed and observed and plans to give the AV team the "real deal" with the Legion then let's pray for his success with that.

Another exLegionary said...

I think it's in poor taste to mention fudge in a forum about Mr. Mustache (Rides).

Another exLegionary said...

ER is who he claims to be.

Anonymous said...

Omg, another ex! You just made me laugh out loud! You've been making me laugh for many months (hmm, ever since February, I do believe, over at AmP), and I do thank you for it.

I can't wait to tell my husband THAT one!

Still RC - For Now, Anyway said...

Another Ex -

Thank you for vouching for ER's identity. I trust you both.

Now ER - please edify me - I'm guessing one year ago if you were a "typical" LC you would not have been given the liberties you now claim to have. Are you a priest or a brother? Have things changed? How did you get access to extra time (as time is Kingdom) and money (as you have taken a vow of poverty) and autonomous ability to visit the outside world (as I thought you traveled where you were sent and usually in pairs). Fr. A's recent 18 page letter, per Changobeer, would have us believe that you are to stay away from news sources, trust your superiors for info. and direction and pray. So where do you find the extra time (and I'm not being sarcastic here). Your participation in this forum completely contradicts the Business as Usual mode that the sections are being encouraged to pursue at the encouragement of the Legion here in the US.

And I assure you, though I cannot respond to your e-mail address at this time (but I do thank you for it and may correspond in the future) I am NOT one of your superiors. Just an RC member in one of the sections working for the movement's transparency and authentic reform.

Anonymous said...

Still RC for Now - how long are you going to try to reform and are you seeing progress? I tried that for a while and just took an official leave because I just couldn't see hope right now or an openness to reform.

Still RC - For Now, Anyway said...

Anon,

Not much obvious "fruit" for my efforts in my section either but then I have no idea who in RC is reading the news and commentaries on the internet. My guess is more than we think. And of course the LC is reading because they have to.

Most RC members would prefer just to leave the situation - not with any "parting comments" but just leave and wish everyone good luck and God speed. So I shouldn't be surprised if no one is willing to form an "RC - Reorganized" branch of our section. And of course our top formators are promoting BAU.

Anonymous said...

For all you who claim to be better than 9 years of lies, let me tell you he is the only authentic person in this blog.
9 years: If you want to say fuck 100 times say it. No need to "edify" anyone in this blog.

Jeannette said...

Those who want 9 Years to forgive- I do not think it means what you think it means. God does not, cannot, forgive those who do not seek His forgiveness. MM is dead and most likely burning in Hell for his outstandingly evil life. So 9 Years' forgiveness can really only take the form of wishing that Maciel had repented (in practical terms). And before you say, "It's time for him to move on", you have to recognize that you just aren't in charge of his recovery timetable. Those days he can leave the heavy weight of a grudge behind are better ones than the others, but it's a day-to-day struggle, not a final resolution. (I'm no theologian and it's been months since I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express, but I'm traveling a similar path.)

Pete Vere said...

A couple points:

1 - 9 years is obviously in great pain and anger. While I disagree with his cursing and his wishing Maciel in hell, I can understand the pain he feels. 9 years is a victim, and it takes time to come to grips with what happened and heal.

2 - To the Anonymous who wrote in response to ER: "I don't find the logic in your thinking. MM suffered from multiple personalities. Therefore he might have designed his order specifically to create priests with multiple personalities?"

Not quite. If MM had DID - which I question for reasons stated (with the caveat I'm not a psychologist) - it would likely reflect in some manner within the structure and the formation of the LC/RC. Which is why I can understand why ER and other LC clergy would pursue this line of investigation.

Jeannette said...

Dr Gladys Sweeney, dean of the LC's IPS, had stated that Marcial Maciel's mental state was just fine.
http://www.unitypublishing.com/NewReligiousMovements/LC60AniversityRome.html

Is someone in the LC disagreeing with her assessment?

Still RC - For Now, Anyway said...

Kindly excuse me but aren't DID patients typically classified as INSANE? Are they able to meet the demands of a day-to-day job without anyone suspecting they have a psychological disorder? Run a company? Write a book or two?

It may be doubtful that MM truly did those things as well, but that only provides more evidence that someone was covering up for him.

The Legion can't even keep track of it's previous lies and coverups anymore. So now it turns out that IPS has either joined the National Catholic Register in completely trashing it's professional reputation for the sake of MM OR the LC has goofed big time with this DID spin (whoops forgot about that little interview that Dr. Sweeney gave several years back . . . )

Excuse me but give me a b**f****** break.

Pete Vere said...

Still RC wrote: "Sounds more like the academic pursuits of the Jesuits."

The Jesuits are cunning and crafty, but their moral formation prevents them from engaging in fraud and misrepresentation. So even if ER turned out to be a troll, it is highly doubtful that the Jesuits would be behind it.

Additionally, keep in mind who originated the idea of Jesuits plotting to take down the LCs: Fr. Maciel. It makes no sense to reject all his other frauds and strange ideas, but to continue believing this particular paranoid delusion.

"Listen, at this point I would greatly prefer if the LC's were to be taken over by the Jesuits because the latter could teach them a thing or two about critical thinking..."

It would be a disaster, despite the fact the Jesuits are currently experiencing a rebirth in young orthodox vocations. Although they use similar vocabulary and on the surface follow a similar charism, structure and mission, their understanding of various concepts is vastly different. A friend of mine is a former LC seminarian who recognized this early in his formation, got out in time, and joined the Jesuits.

Additionally, there's a young orthodox Jesuit seminarian named Nathan O'Halloran who blogged an excellent essay on this very topic:

http://tinyurl.com/mjs8lh

"Surely ER would agree with me, as he seems to be close to Fr. Hardon, SJ."

Sadly, many other sources report that Fr. Hardon often referred young men to the Legion when they approached him about a possible Jesuit vocation.

Which again shows that Fr. Maciel never thought with the mind of the Church, despite his empty rhetoric. Did it not think that holy men like Fr. Hardon and John Paul II would intervene for the living once they passed on to Heaven?

"Either that or the LC is in complete disarray and oversight isn't what it used to be."

I've heard this from several sources inside the LC/RC, and Fr. Changobeer has also blogged about this as well. Reportedly an increasing number of the LC/RC middle leadership is fed up and secretly disregarding the upper leadership.

Still RC - For Now, Anyway said...

Pete, I'll defer to your understanding of the differences betw. LC and Jesuit thinking because you know people in both groups. But I have to say that Nathan O'Halloran's article (which I had read a bit ago) demonstrates well what I see as one of the biggest differences - namely that the Jesuits tend to have a more mature and developed way of thinking - indeed a better intellect, in my opinion - than is encouraged in the Legion. That's why I made the reference, partly (but not entirely) in jest, about the Jesuits taking over the LC and teaching them how to think.

But please don't conclude that I could possibly believe the MM delusional accusation against the Jesuits - I certainly didn't mean to leave anyone with that nonsensical idea! Much further up you'll see that my reference to the Jesuits originally was in response to ER's statement that he had essentially, on his own initiative, done some academic research and consultation to verify the validity of the DID diagnosis related by his superior. Doesn't sound very LC to me - I thought they're usually too busy "building the kingdom" and misrepresenting the virtue of "obedience to the superiors" to do that kind of fact-checking on anything their superiors tell them. Whether appropriate or not, my comment was intending to convey my skepticism as to his true identity (till someone later on vouched for it).

But if you are correct in saying that the mid-level LC and RC members are disregarding upper leadership and if ER is truthfully representing himself (as I now believe he is) then fact checking would certainly make sense - esp. these days. The times they are a-changin'.

Anonymous said...

Probably it was Fr. Hardon's way of discouraging unsuitable candidates -the Jesuits go for INTELLIGENT, brave men, not those dumb blond Maciel-groomed twits.

Anonymous said...

I don't know about anyone else, but this fits MM more than a double personality...


Profile of the Sociopath

This website summarizes some of the common features of descriptions of the behavior of sociopaths.

* Glibness and Superficial Charm

* Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

* Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

* Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

* Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

* Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

* Incapacity for Love

* Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

* Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

* Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

* Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

* Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

* Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

* Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

* Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

Anonymous said...

Other Related Qualities:

1. Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
2. Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
3. Authoritarian
4. Secretive
5. Paranoid
6. Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
7. Conventional appearance
8. Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
9. Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
10. Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
11. Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
12. Incapable of real human attachment to another
13. Unable to feel remorse or guilt
14. Extreme narcissism and grandiose
15. May state readily that their goal is to rule the world


(The above traits are based on the psychopathy checklists of H. Cleckley and R. Hare.)

Anonymous said...

"seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired"

And this is exactly what Maciel found in our Catholic church.......a situation in which his tyrannical behavior was not only tolerated but admired as saintly! What in the world is wrong within our church that so many people were unable to recognize so very many signs of a sociopath? And that the ones who DID see him for what he was were not only bally-hooed but trashed as enemies of the Church and workers of the Devil.

More than anything else, I hope that this horror will make the Church as a whole do a serious self-examination. Shouldn't we have some sort of checks-and-balances system to prevent a sociopath from being able to continue his abuse for 65 years? It's not like NOBODY knew. People did know and were powerless to be able to do anything about it. What mechanisms failed that allowed this to happen? What ARE the mechanisms that are in place to prevent such a thing in our Church? Are we simply at the mercy of whatever corruption and evil happens to be present in our Church hierarchy at the time?

I am fully cognizant of the fact our Church is not a democracy. But it IS an organization run by very fallen humans, and it seems to me that in order to prevent something like this from being able to happen, we need to have some sort of system in place to safeguard the faithful.

No head of the CDF should have to say that he can't do anything about a child molester because that child molester is "so very dear to the Pope".

Anonymous said...

It is so interesting to read all the comments! Not because many new facts or pieces of information get revealed.
Primarily, because or your very normal, understandable, raw emotions to this matter.

I have never been part of this outfit. But I have observed many in my immediate environment drink the cool aid and some of them have left by now after, oh 5+ years. Some still drink the cool aid. For me and my husband the stench was just too obvious.

My husband is a walk away from an Eastern cult. The single most important piece of work to understand how cults work, but also what they do to members is Steve Hassan's "Combatting Mind Control".
Steve Hassan is a cult survivor too. He was part of the Moon Cult - please go and check out this book.

It is really immaterial what prompted Maciel to do what he did.

The objective evil he committed and its ramifications on all of you is there -whether he was sick or not only determines his very own culpability, and that is clearly not for us to determine.

The remaining order, however, given the recent disclosures, is a different story - if the corner stone is rotten, so is everything else. They have a serious moral duty to clean up act, whatever that means - walk away, dismantle the outfit, fire the perpetrators,........ I don't know.

May God love and bless all of you!

Anonymous said...

Just roaming around the web today, I discovered that the official Legionary website still quotes dear ole NP:

http://www.legionariesofchrist.org/eng/articulos/categoria.phtml?lc=se-241_ca-792_ci-898

Several quotes from the much-loved Christ is My Life. (Thus saith the pedophile: "My experience of over sixty years working with priestly vocations brings home to me the marvel of God’s grace acting in the soul of the chosen person, which surprises you and surpasses any human outlook [...]. I am, then, convinced that a teenager and even a child is capable of clearly sensing God’s call in his soul.") There are other quotes from Maciel on that same page that are even worse.

Some days I feel like I must be living in the Twilight Zone.

I just can't fathom a religious order continuing to quote the works of a child molester/fraud/deviant as an explanation of the order's beliefs about vocation.

Just the mention of Maciel talking about all the young people he has observed over the past 60+ years makes me feel sick to my stomach.

Pete Vere said...

Still RC:

My apologies! I had been on the road for several hours yesterday, both before and after a full day doing canonical research in two different countries, then arrived home to a tear-jerking email from a former consecrated (and critic of those who leave the LC/RC bitter) explaining why she herself has now succumbed to the bitterness. So I completely missed that you were employing light sarcasm to make a serious point - namely that ER appears to be acting more like a Jesuit than a LC right now. After a good night's sleep your post now makes complete sense to me.

"But please don't conclude that I could possibly believe the MM delusional accusation against the Jesuits - I certainly didn't mean to leave anyone with that nonsensical idea!"

Again, my apologies!

This was never told to me directly by Jesuit friends, but looking back now on my conversations with them about the Legion, which in fairness to them were always initiated by me, I think they sensed from way back something was wrong but their game plan was to wait this one out, staying as far away from the Legion as possible.

For regardless of the Jesuit, whether young or old, liberal or orthodox, I always received a similar response whenever I mentioned the Legion. It was never direct. Rather, the response came in the form of questions designed to move the discussion from a particular religious order to more abstract theological discussion on the nature of Christian conscience and religious obedience.

Anonymous said...

This debate about MM DID is the best thing that can happen to the Legon. Why?
1. If Mr Mustache had DID then all his work is part of a delusion. There is no holy spirit inspiration. It must dissapear.
2. If he wasnt sick, then he is a diabolic person. Then all his work bust dissapear too.

No matter the cause, the conclusion must be the same. Tear down the Legion.

Anonymous said...

9 Years of lies: you are swearing on behalf of many other exLC's who don't like to swear. Your emotions express what many of us have felt and are feeling. Sometimes you crack me up, too, which is always helpful when we're dealing with such heavy stuff as the Maciel Matrix. Thank you for your candor and your presence here. I hope God will heal you and guide you along whatever path you follow.

-10 years of lies (and all I got was a few guayaberas, a black double breasted suit, and $1000 for the road from Fr Donal Clancy)

By the way, I have no doubt that ER is an LC priest, you can tell by his writing.

Anonymous said...

My husband loves wearing guayaberas, and I hate it b/c it makes me think of the LCs... LOL! And a black, double-breasted suit? Good, I guess, if you're going to a funeral...but not much else!!

Anonymous said...

Maciel's on facebook. I had no idea. Wonder what HIS wall says?? (I can only imagine). I refuse to add him as a friend so I will never find out.

I'm thinking the f*** app might be applicable here.........

http://www.facebook.com/marcial.maciel

Anonymous said...

Mr Edmond Ritter:

I just tried to email you twice. I sent the email to the address you provided: a7316fr@yahoo.com

That email doesn't work.

I spent quite some time writing you, as an exLC brother to another brother still in the LC.

Please, do be a gentleman and AT LEAST use a valid email address. Give me a break! If your superiors found out about the one you've been posting here, then just change the name to something else so that we may contact you.

So far, writing you was a colossal waste of my time. Do show some virtue and provide a valid email address if you intend to correspond with anyone on this blog outside of these comboxes.

-Daniel

Anonymous said...

Ladies and gentlemen: The LC (courtesy of the unsinkable Lucrecia)

http://lacomunidad.elpais.com/lplanas/2009/8/21/hablemos-lealtad

Anonymous said...

She learned well the words of her dear NP, the ones about always believing the good---and only the bad you see with your own eyes, and even if you see the bad, excuse it internally. (pedophile's dream!!)

Can I just say that never in my life have I been so frustrated at my inability to read/speak Spanish as I have been in the past few months? The online translators only go so far. lol

Anyway, I got the gist of the article, and it pretty much makes me want to gag to hear this woman twisting the Catechism of our Catholic Church and using it as a means of keeping the kool-aide flowing down the throats of MM's followers.

Utterly demented.

Anonymous said...

ER,

If you really are an LC (and it seems that you are), I would encourage you to do the right thing, and get out. Confronting the manipulative higher ups, forming some kind of "LC Underground", or waiting for the visitation results to include a reform of the order is useless. The Legion is a self-serving fundraising and vocation recruiting machine, and that's all it's ever been. You can ask anyone who ever worked in admin about how the tuition was set for Mexico: how much money does the Legion need this year? Increase tuition in all the schools to meet that need. It has never been about serving the Church, or education. It has always been about telling a better story to the benefactor so that they'll give more, or convincing some kid to join the candidacy without even considering joining the diocese. What the fuck do you think all those ridiculous group photos were for?

The Legion presented itself to the unsuspecting lay person as God's gift to Catholic education, almost like they invented it. In reality the schools were an after thought. Mr Mustache didn't have a clue what he would do if the Legion was successful, and it wouldn't have gone anywhere in the US if it were not for Fr. Bannon, because in 40 years of hangin out in the Waldorf the old Mr. Mustache never even learned to say "hello".

I won't even start on all the other failed attempt at "apostolates". They didn't all start as recruitment activities, but don't tell me that they were designed to get people more involved in their parishes. It's all "recruitment" and fundraising, nothing different from Scientology.

ER, do the right thing. Leave while you still have faith. Get your underground to start a legitimate order. Then something good will come from evil, and by evil I do mean the Legion.

On a selfish note. If you do decide to stick around, tell the Mexican mafia to fuck themselves. They forced us to live in fear, and obviously they have no plans of letting go of that power.

10 years of lies (2 continents, 3 schools, 4 houses of brainwashing)

Anonymous said...

Daniel:
It's the strangest thing! I sent myself email from another box to the one indicated

a7316fr@yahoo.com

and I get back the message that the box does not exist. But going into yahoo, I tell you it exists!

It is at moments like this that my paranoia really is piqued. I imagine the superiors in the DG making a phone call to someone in yahoo and asking for a little "favor" and whoala: Edmond Ritter can't get any email messages though the email box uppears unblocked.

Naaah, can't be!

Why don't you try this other box?

temple777guard@yahoo.com

Otherwise you could post your email address?

Sorry. Edmond Ritter

Anonymous said...

Anon. August 22, 2009 10:28 PM

I buy everything you say about the LC/RC as a self-serving machine. I have seen the patterns you mention again and again.

As for leaving... What's the big deal if I do it in two months or in a year. I have not excluded the possibility. The reason or one of the main reasons that the same click of superiors have held onto the reins of government is that the half decent LCs are either marginalized or leave of their own accord. This happened in 1956-8. It's no sin to linger a bit and see that truth is served.
Aside, there are some personal issues I have to settle first.

Finally, supposing true all that you say above about the LC being a self-serving machine. It is quite a machine isn't it? It's powerful, it's got a multi-national structure that could in theory be turned around and put at the AUTHENTIC service to the Church. So let Benedict XVI suppress the LC if that's what he is going to do. What then? He needs someone to help him run the thing. I can always volunteer. Perhaps B16 will want to found a new structure for the purpose, a "Catholic NGO", or maybe he will found a new order for the purpose... You know this is not all negative. The future holds possibilities, and the possibilities brighten in the measure that Benedict looks ready to do a real, radical housecleaning, as he has done for Miles Jesu.

I think many of you are too negative overall, and you get lost in the unquestionable evils that MM. But there are good things going on too... if Benedict does the courageous but necessary amputations in the upcoming surgery.

I can wait a couple months to a year and see.

Thanks for your concern
Edmond Ritter

Anonymous said...

Daniel,

CORRECTION. The email address, just tested and verified to work, is

knighttemple77@yahoo.com

Yours, ER

Anonymous said...

You have got to watch the following youtube video on "The Wave." It is a true story on a teacher's experience of the power of a cult. It is very scary how this relates to LC/RC.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=the+wave+part+1&search_type=&aq=6&oq=the+wave

Still RC - For Now, Anyway said...

Pete Vere,

No hard feelings I assure you and I appreciate your thoughtful, detailed commentary - it's been very beneficial these past few months, especially as emotions run high. Please keep up the very good work.

Pete Vere said...

Thanks for the kind words, ER. Which reminds me, one point you keep raising is that you hope the Holy See can impose a reform on LC like it did on Miles Jesu.

From what I recall of the Miles Jesu situation, the apostolic visitation was brought on by a letter from one of their respected priests requesting excardination followed by highly documented complaints by several superior, both current and former, against the founder. Thus the initiative for the reform came from the inside, and the Holy See simply assisted a core group on the inside who were already trying to reform the group. A groups that had spoken up and demanded Rome step in.

On the other hand, I don't have this same sense of initiative, recognition or urgency with the Legion. Thus I cannot help but wonder whether the Legion has the will to change.

Anonymous said...

Matthew 15: 13 is of course ultimately normative:

"But he [Jesus Christ] answered and said, 'Every plant which my heavenly Father planted not, shall be rooted up.'"

I don't have the awesome authority to declare the plant in question, the Legion, ultimately of God or of the devil. The Pope does, and during these days, he is discerning and determining. Meanwhile, for us workers -- vine dressers, if you will -- this seems to be more immediately applicable:

"A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, 'Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?' And he answering said unto him, 'Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down'" (Lk. 13:6-9).

Pardon the very different translations... probably they suffice for my purpose. Mere worker that I am, I cannot determine the law in the vineyard of the Church. I listen for the Master's Voice in his Vicar. Meanwhile, I continue to work according to the command I have received.

When Peter speaks, I will act. In the meanwhile, there is some serious pruning and hoeing to be done, and it's best done at close quarters, yes, even within the vineyard, or to change metaphors, from within the heart of the beast.

It's surprising that the counsel of many on this blog offered to me coincides so perfectly with the counsel that the Legionary superiors have given me time and again. They too want me out, and ASAP! I have read Gonzalez's book ("Marcial Maciel..."): I know their playbook. Divide and conquer. Divide us internally, destroying our consciences. Then divide us personally, so that we cannot communicate our internal spiritual dispositions to one another, except to the superiors. Then separate separate us physically -- priests to the Fathers' building, Brothers into theirs. Then separate us even from the Legion itself: send us home and leave us out of communication with one another. It is perfect: they have us divided us and conquered for 60 years and longer! That's why they keep succeeding in holding the reins of power. Well, I will not be separated! Here I can be of more use to the Pope and the Church, and more of an effective nuisance to the weeds, tares and other parasites.

Pass the insecticide and the roto rutter!

ER

Anonymous said...

"Mere worker that I am, I cannot determine the law in the vineyard of the Church. I listen for the Master's Voice in his Vicar. Meanwhile, I continue to work according to the command I have received."

We do not need to wait for the word of a Pope to tell us that we need to get out of an bad situation---and that the commands we are receiving are coming from an organization founded on fraud and deviancy.

Moreover, this is not a matter of infallibility, and Popes (as we have seen with JPII) can be dead wrong.

I would never tell you what you should do, but I think the excuse of waiting for the Pope to tell you what to do was worn out a long time ago by the Legion. They have been stuck in total lethargy, unable (or unwilling!) to make any decisions about matters that are clearly of great importance because they are "waiting for the Pope". In the meantime, more and more people have been hurt and scandalized.

I do understand your desire to stay in in the hopes that you can effect some change, but at what point do you face the fact that the whole thing was just rotten from the beginning? That no matter what you do, the very structure of the beast is designed in such a way as to be abusive and harmful? You can't change the foundation. Something founded on lies and abuse cannot be made good by tweaking it here and there.

Anonymous said...

God's will.

Strange and inexplicable to human intelligence.

Like God's asking Abraham to sacrifice his son...

"Mad!" "Sacrilegious!" even.

But the salvation of the world passed through Abraham's faith.

And what to say about the sacrifice of the Eternal Son of God, by the Eternal Father?

God blasphemes Himself!? To save you and me!? Has God gone insane?

Please explain to me what intelligence there can be in the salvation of the world being wrought through the greatest of all sins, the murder of the Son of God by humanity?

I do not understand. Therefore I will obey.

I put my reason under the yoke of obedience.

Thanks for the spiritual direction.

ER

Anonymous said...

And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"
Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Cf Matt 16:22-23

giselle said...

You frighten me, ER. If you'll notice this important article, mindless obedience (even to the Pope) is an indication of cultishness:

http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_articles/vere_peter_whatcanonlawyerslookfor_0402.htm

Pete Vere channels Fr Morrissey:

"1. 'Total' obedience to the pope
Many will find this first warning sign surprising. As Catholics, are we not all called to obey the Holy Father? Indeed, we are. When a new association sincerely seeks to obey and follow the teachings of the Holy Father, canonists are for the most part satisfied the group is doing what Catholic groups ought to do.

Nevertheless, some new associations abuse Catholic sensibility in this regard. These groups cite 'total obedience to the Holy Father' when what they really mean is partial obedience to selected teachings of the Holy Father, without embracing the entire papal message. Additionally, when challenged over their partial obedience, these groups will appeal to their 'total' reliance upon the Holy Father in an attempt to bypass the authority of the diocesan bishop."

Do yourself a favour and read it all.

Anonymous said...

Giselle:

How intelligent is it to say that I am more intelligent then God?

That is the essence of rationalism: the absolutization of the finite human mind, or put another way, putting the finite human mind on the same level as, or above, the Mind of God.

Is it frightening to submit ones finite intelligence to God? Absolutely. But this submission is reasonable, and not to submit is irrational! It's what faith is all about.

When the passion of fear suppresses reason in us, then we have taken a first and fundamental step toward brain washing; we in effect have left a lever in our spirit by which others, a leader, a guru, a group, can control us. Of this sort of fear, that suppresses reason and enslaves us, I am dreadfully afraid. I have seen this technique operative in the Legion, and used against me!

But if human reason submits to obedience informed by the Transcendent Intelligence beyond itself, i.e., if I let myself be led by God, then what we really have is the operation of the theological virtues. Love more than reason, but NOT COUNTER to reason, becomes the motor of the human person's action. That's the love impulse or "eros" that propelled Abraham and Christ to their sacrifice.

So should we equate Christ, or Abraham, with someone who acts against reason, like a Taliban or terrorist? That does seem to be implicit in the hard identification of "total obedience" and fanatics and sects led by fanatics you allude to in Morrissey.

But no. Saying that God's reason (for His Command) is beyond Abraham's intelligence is not the same thing as saying that God's reason does not exist, and that hence Abraham's obedience goes against reason. Abraham's faith and obedience is reasonable. HE SHOULD KILL ISAAC, OFFERING HIM TO GOD ON MORIAH, in obedience to God's command. (Here we have to grant that Abraham was sure it was God who was commanding it. Today, we know that God does not accept blood sacrifices, and the command would be quite suspect. But this is a lesson that humanity only started to learn through Abraham's obedience. It is absurd for us to look down on Abraham as morally inferior without recognizing that our morality came to us in part through his obedience - God held him back from consummating the sacrifice.)

To be continued... (ER)

Anonymous said...

... continued (ER)

Does this imply that Abraham is a Taliban, a terrorist fanatic? No. (1) He obeys out of love and faith but not counter to reason; God knew the reason, it existed and without Abraham's understanding how, it informed his act, rendering it not absurd. (2) Abraham's act was one of sacrifice, not murder. The terrorist claims to offer sacrifice to God. But in fact terrorists hate their victims. In AUTHENTIC religion, a sacrifice is of something that is not only good, but best, "the first fruits", that most loved. The random murder of hated people is not a sacrifice, and the act of Abraham of offering up that he most loved, his son Isaac, is an authentic sacrifice. Therefore, Abrahams's act and that of terrorist should not be confused. They are quite different: one is reasonable the other is not, one is sacrifice and the other outright murder.

Conclusion: absolute obedience to the absolute God is reasonable.

No one claims that absolute obedience to a relative authority is reasonable. And that is what seems to be involved with certain groups offering "Total obedience" to the Pope. The Pope is not absolute authority. He participates God's authority, but that implies mediation, PARTicipation. His authority is part of God's, and therefore less.

I have read the document you referred and it is very good. I have no problem with it.

Therefore, I think that there is no fanaticism or absurdity in my staying on. I believe I am called to stay on for a while more at least. It seems that you and many others think that I underestimate the absolute wickedness of the Legion -- I think you folks exaggerate. Furthermore, you people think that to participate in the Legion is to espouse necessarily all the wickedness that MM has done. Well, I think it's rather to expiate. Facing the world's contempt for something we did not do is not fun, and can be quite a good sacrifice besides. Another matter is whether I think I can psychologically and spiritually survive undamaged. I have made my best estimate, and I think I can. The psychoanalyst said to me, beaming, about a week ago, that she too thinks I can. And I do not stand alone. There are some Legionaries that have waken up. You won't read their names in any headlines, but we are doing what we can to raise the consciences of the others in a way that you cannot hope to do from the outside.

Fidelity. Why should I abandon my folk when they are in most need? How can I consider that virtue, and not vile cowardice?

I think your judgment is skewed by hatred and offenses suffered, and quite understandably. But that cannot be my North Star. It is rather what I dimly and imperfectly perceive to be God's will, the adhesion to which I think is reasonable and correct.

ER

Anonymous said...

Waxing lyrical,ER? Do us a favour, take a nap.

Anonymous said...

I have to largely agree with ER.

Look - MM was a fraud and a scoundrel of the worst type. But ER know this.

There MAY be good things in the LC and the RC worth saving. They actually do good things. They have helped many people. They have also hurt, abused and scandalised many. (As an aside, this is why the tyoical "look at the fruits" argument from LC apologists doesn't work - there are good and bad fruits and we have no idea how many bad fruits there actually are!)

I think it is unlikely (though possible) that the LCs will be suppressed. Thus there will be an attempt at reform probably with an external, non-Mexican (!!!) general director. I think that it is reasonable for ER to stay in and try to help that reform if he can, so long as this does not cause spiritual and psychological harm to him. And that's the big gamble for him here.

ER: you have my prayers. Many of the LCs here where I live are living in fantasy land, even still telling RC members that MM was a great man!! The path of reform will be difficult. You have my prayers!

Anonymous said...

As many have said before me.........there is no reform when there was nothing good there in the first place. Reform to what?

I do agree that suppression is very unlikely, given the Legion's friends in the Vatican and their ability to make money. Money-- more than anything else in this world--talks. Yes, I am cynical.

Anyway, I was clearing out my bookmarks today and came across this article I had bookmarked, which many here have read, I am sure.

http://krestaintheafternoon.blogspot.com/2009/04/sign-and-counter-sign.html

Essentially, the point made by the author is that "This was a central theme in the Vatican II teachings on religious life. “[T]he spirit and aims of each founder should be faithfully accepted and retained” (PC, 2). Moreover, the Holy See has continued to emphasize the importance of the founders in its pronouncements on religious life" and that therefore:

"A founder cannot be “removed” in the same way that a diocesan bishop can. When the diocesan bishop leaves office, the clergy of the diocese cease collaborating with him. However, even after the death of a religious founder, the members of his congregation never cease collaborating with him in their own service and life"

Basically, the gist is that those who choose to stay in a religious order founded by a fraud are collaborating with him simply by virtue of being in same order.

I'm no theologian, but this article makes a lot of sense to me. How can an order faithfully accept and retain the spirit and aims of a pederast sociopath?

Anonymous said...

ER: keep ypur posts short. It seems you have a lot of free time... rare thing in the Legion...

Anonymous said...

ER,

I doubt that any who read this blog will argue with your theology, but unfortunately this is not an academic exercise. It's probably difficult for you to understand how pretentious your ramblings sound to those of us who were in the Legion with you, but then you never left, or got asked to leave. You were never told that this was your vocation beyond a shadow of a doubt, only to find out years later that somebody was under a lot of pressure to make his numbers, and you were one of them.

All of us had positive experiences inside, but that doesn't make the final product positive. Lot's of people make friends in prison, but it's still prison. We were victims of an institutionalized lie, a lie so sophisticated that even the pope thought it was true. The spirit of the Legion was a lie, and there is no such thing as "mistique" when the people pitching it were personally formed by a sociopath.

Save the theology for the class room.

10 years of lies

giselle said...

ER said: "Conclusion: absolute obedience to the absolute God is reasonable."

I haven't said it wasn't. The question is, "Is the LC superior a legitimate expression of the absolute will of God?"

You say absolutely yes. I say you're out on a limb to believe that, given what's been revealed about the foundation and structure of your group. You also include a lot of personal attacks on me that were not founded on authentic charity.

I love you regardless. Peace.

Pete Vere said...

ER:

If you're going to stay on the inside and try and reform the LC/RC, because this is where you believe God is calling you, then my prayers are with you.

With that in mind, the next question you need to ask yourself is how are you going to reform the Legion. What stays, what goes, and what changes? (I strongly suggest a candid and sincere apology to Fr. Maciel's victims.)

Additionally, you are only one person. You cannot reform the LC/RC on your own, and for the most part God acts through His human instruments. So who is going to help you reform the Legion from within? How are you going to reach out to others within the Legion and convince them the Legion needs reforming? (Fr. Jose Anton might be a good start, if you're in Rome.)

Not that it cannot be done, only that you need to figure who you're going to reach out and how you will convince them. This plan should include prayer.

Anonymous said...

The capacity to live in the practical order guided under the higher principles of "Theology", broadly understood, is the mark of a man trying to live integrally, i.e., bringing the practical aspects of his existence under a higher law. This calls to mind St Augustine's dictum, "If you do not live as you believe, then you will believe as you live". Trying to avoid the latter, I naturally try to discern my path under the light of the Theology and Philosophy that I know. It's me. It's how I have formed myself over the years.

How truly stupid those of you are who tell me that I come off as pretentious. You come off as having an inferiority complex that spontaneously thinks that because someone speaks "high faluting" in style (and this, too, is merely your subjective judgment) that he is necessarily talking down to you. Well, dummies, maybe I was, though while I was writing it I thought I was speaking to equals or betters.

It is a very LC thing to follow the flock, be one of the sheep. I break the mold in that sense. It's a tragedy that there are so few who do. But I will not start being a flock-member on this blog, squeezing myself into the modes of self-expression that others like, approve, or feel comfortable with. I am not looking to be liked. What you read above is me. Don't like it? Don't read it. Or, to borrow from the lexicon of our esteemed colleague, Mr 9-years-of-lies: FUCK OFF!!!

There. Perhaps you can understand that and won't feel I am talking down to you (so much). Is that better?

By the way, the themes I expounded on above follow naturally on the comment Giselle made to me. I have studied the issues of good, evil and redemption in hundreds of pages of dense philosophy and theology. What I gave you above is a very dense, too dense condensation. Someone accuses me of rambling? Rambling?! Every word is there for a reason. If you cannot see the reason, that reveals something about your light reading of it. I recommend you just skip over the rest of my posts. They're not for you.

Sincerly, Edmond Ritter

Anonymous said...

I do not follow my superior's commands unconditionally. They will be the first to tell you that! The Legion is in crisis. The moral and spiritual authority of the Legion as such is in crisis. I discern as best I can God's will each day, and it is not what is spoon fed to me by the superiors or anyone else.

Yet, who am I to say they are not legitimate superiors so long as legitimate Church authority does not state otherwise?

Pilate to Jesus Christ: "You refuse to speak to me? Do you not know that I have the power to free you and to crucify you?" Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me whatever were it not given to you from above." (cf John 19:10.11).

Jesus accepts Pilate's corrupt but legitimate power. We have to accept that of duly constituted superiors.

I do not absolutize the superior's authority, which would be a disorder. I (try to) obey the absolute God absolutely, without conditions, no easy thing. The light that I receive to discern the divine will may come through superiors as well as through other means, like interior inspirations. That, I think, is normal for everyone. Unilaterally basing our discernment only on interior inspirations, or only on superiors, or any other single contingent sourse ("Nuestro Padre"): that is risky.

Giselle, don't you enjoy an occasional good "mud wrastle"? I know that in her day, Lady Thatcher loved a good scrap. I find it's good therapy and highly recommend it. Yes, I am speaking tongue in cheek. But I also have in mind the late Philip Rieff's book, "The Triumph of the Therapeutic".

God bless, ER

Anonymous said...

It seems to me ER said to be an LC based in Rome. Some points about:

a) in another combox he said current chanchellor of APRA is Fr. Paolo Scarafoni. It is incorrect. Fr. Scarafoni resigned at least 2 years ago.
At present time Fr. Pedro Barrajón is chanchellor of APRA. Fr. Scarafoni is chanchellor of UER. Something an LC Fr. or Br. based in Rome should know too well.

b) there is a post sent by ER at 5:15 PM, that is at least at 11:15 PM local time of Rome. Time to pray and sleep for formation community, isn't it?

c) it can be possible ER is an LC belonging to apostolate community, which has a different timetable. But to get a full internet access he should:

1. be in an RC center with full internet access (permission?)
2. be outside LC or RC centers (permission?)
3. have an account or an internet key with full internet access (why and where?)

d) internet activity of all accounts in lcred (= lcnet) are logged and controlled: is it possible noone seems to know ER is spending so much time on exlc blog?

Anonymous said...

Mr Vere:

No, I am not trying to reform the LC/RC. I am discerning God's will. That, for the time being, translates into doing the good here and now, which translates into contributing to the reform of the deformations of sinners in general starting with myself, and the institution of which I form part. The attitude that "I am going to reform the LC" smacks of hubris.

You are right so far as I can see. The Legion must be returned (or rather, be established for the first time) in the normal moral coordinates of the rest of the Church and the human race. Restitution must be made to all victims. The worst victims I regard to be Luis Garza, Sada,... all these once good people that MM corrupted and twisted so that they have a mangled or utterly destroyed moral compass. I weep for their moral ruin. I also weep for the degradations inflicted on hundreds of sexual abuse victims, only a few of whom are known publicly. From my limited reading in psychology, saying that hundreds of sexual victims might mark the wake of MM's itinerary is unfortunately no exaggeration, but in keeping with what pederasts are.

No. I never work alone. Since I try to adhere to God's will, I can be sure He, who orders all things sweetly for those who love Him, will coordinate the actions of many: the Pope, his direct helpers, and us who are trying to do the good each day.

I might just receive the green light to leave tomorrow. Then I will leave in peace knowing that God is the Lord of the universe and that evil does not happen unless He has a plan to draw good fruit from it.

I do not suffer from any messiah complex. Jesus saves. Not me. I will be fortunate if I am counted worthy of salvation.

Given these premises. The next step is to provide the Visitators all they need to come to a correct and exact idea of our situation. I will report on the abuse I have suffered and try to put in context of the legislation we live under. It is the spirituality itself that is sick.

Next step: wait for the determination of the Vatican. If the Vatican gives a clear one, then I have to choose in light of God whether I can work and live within it. If, for example, Benedict simply "sprinkles" us with holy water and says, "full steam ahead, all is beautiful and wonderful", then I will run for the door. If on the other hand, He determines that the LC is dead and that he wants to attempt a refoundation, I will find that positively appealing, and would probably remain to found what this time will really be a work of God.

Only at this point does it become relevant to me to make the delicate discernment: what in the LC spirituality is good and should stay, what is evil and must go? The daily "acts of piety" (mass, rosary, meditations...) that can stay. The letter opening by superiors, the dictum that "Legionaries have no free time" (yes, that is part of LC spirituality and is positively sect-inducing!) will be appropriately disposed of, buried, nuked.

I have contemplated starting on this work now... What are the criteria for such a discernment? But you know, I might be wasting a lot of time, investing hundreds of hours in something that may prove irrelevant. I know that Giselle has already done some work in this direction on her website, where she posts articles questioning the LC spirituality in its notions of unity, and its abuse of virtues. She is scratching very near the matrix of the rot. My belief is that the Legionary concept of "Charity" is the kernel from which all the erroneous practices flow. As I just said, I will not try to argue this unless the Holy Father makes clear that the effort is relevant by showing he wants to get to the root of our disorders and establish the LC (or whatever it will be called) in authentic justice within the Church.

Yours, Edmond Ritter

Anonymous said...

I don't care whether or not you think I am a real LC or not. Yes, I made an error with regard to P Scarafoni. I am not into the government of the UPRA, where that makes a real difference.

Poor creature. May I ask why you care so much of my identity? I may make errors on a thousand extrinsic facts like that of which I don't particularly care -- exactly because I don't give a whit about identifying myself as an LC. In fact, such errors help me be anonymous. My interest is to detox with normal people: to be criticized, be insulted, have a good fight... in fine, to be normal. Why?

The queerest thing in the world is sitting at the refectory or dining room table, and talk about the weather, sports, politics... and not about the catastrophic crisis of the Legionaries, and our degradation.

Can you understand that that alone can make one, who has his moral bearing still operative, nuts?! I just want to be psychologically normal, and this blog has become for me a God send for the purpose. I cannot talk to any LC: we lived in a world of fused internal and external forums in which every thought of mine of importance to me will come back to wound me.

I come here for detox, and objective criticism.

And some of you too have to be Legion trolls... I know. I won't mention names or posts. But the "spiritual direction" you offer is too much like what has been offered to me by the Legionaries. Especially all that which indicates a hatred of reason or things intellectual. I have discovered over the years that at the center of the Legion there is a hidden inferiority complex before reason or book learning. MM had so little of it. One time he saw me carrying around the awesome, really too thick tome of Thomas Tyn, OP (spelling?), "The Metaphysics of the Substance". He almost flipped out saying essentially that he would die if he read such a thing. No doubt. Even I did not read all of it. But he selected his superiors mostly with similar attitudes, and the "Legion spirituality" does not encourage truth-seeking or respect for objectivity.

So stop worrying about who I am. Base my words on their merits. I am not here to give or get information, as the trolls seem to think, that is their attitude which they project over me. It is they who hunger desperately to get information, to isolate the "rogue" as per Legion methodology for control of the flock. If I give info, it's "per accidens", uh, that is, incidentally.

Yours, ER

Pete Vere said...

ER writes: "Someone accuses me of rambling? Rambling?! Every word is there for a reason. If you cannot see the reason, that reveals something about your light reading of it. I recommend you just skip over the rest of my posts. They're not for you."

I have to agree with your critics here, although they might have expressed themselves a little more gently. I'm finding it difficult to follow some of your logic in previous posts. It may make sense to you, but I'm just not following.

But then again, I'm a student of the Pio-Benedictine Code, the 1983 Code, the 1990 Eastern Code, St. Anselm, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Josemaria Escriva, St. John Chrysostom, Catherine de Huek and the current Holy Father - all of who write (or in the case of the codes, were in written) in a style that values simplicity, clarity and accessibility to the reader.

Having said that, the following makes sense:

"Given these premises. The next step is to provide the Visitators all they need to come to a correct and exact idea of our situation. I will report on the abuse I have suffered and try to put in context of the legislation we live under. It is the spirituality itself that is sick.

"Next step: wait for the determination of the Vatican. If the Vatican gives a clear one, then I have to choose in light of God whether I can work and live within it. If, for example, Benedict simply 'sprinkles' us with holy water and says, 'full steam ahead, all is beautiful and wonderful', then I will run for the door. If on the other hand, He determines that the LC is dead and that he wants to attempt a refoundation, I will find that positively appealing, and would probably remain to found what this time will really be a work of God.

"Only at this point does it become relevant to me to make the delicate discernment: what in the LC spirituality is good and should stay, what is evil and must go? The daily 'acts of piety' (mass, rosary, meditations...) that can stay. The letter opening by superiors, the dictum that 'Legionaries have no free time' (yes, that is part of LC spirituality and is positively sect-inducing!) will be appropriately disposed of, buried, nuked."

Sounds like a plan.

Anonymous said...

"If on the other hand, He determines that the LC is dead and that he wants to attempt a refoundation, I will find that positively appealing,"

Which brings me to a question (not so much directed to you, ER---so please don't turn your rudeness on me, as I just woke up and haven't had enough coffee for that yet). How do you "re-found" an order? Could any of us get a group of pious people together, write up a few rules, and declare it the foundation of an order? Or given that we have a group of people (LC/RC) already brought together under a set of (we now know to be) very twisted, abusive rules and regs, can we just change a few rules, and voila! declare that we have founded a new order?

It seems to me that this is all a very secular way of thinking about it. If an order is just a group of pious people with a common goal, why can't any of us pull such a group together and call it an order? Sounds more like a business enterprise.

Back to VII "“[T]he spirit and aims of each founder should be faithfully accepted and retained” (PC, 2). Moreover, the Holy See has continued to emphasize the importance of the founders in its pronouncements on religious life"

Where's the founder? How do you go about constructing an order without one? Is there any precedent for that?

Early on in this mess, I remember reading that some of the LC leadership were trying to bamboozle us with the notion that Maciel wasn't the founder at all, that his canonized uncle was. Guess they discovered that when they floated the idea, people laughed in ridicule at the idea, given that nobody had ever heard of that uncle connected to the Legion in any way, shape, or form prior to that. Either that or somebody dug up proof that the uncle was totally against Maciel and his brainchild right from the get-go (which wouldn't surprise me in the least---bet his uncle knew he was a pervert, or at least suspected something was very much amiss).

So what do you do now? Wait for a founder to materialize out of thin air? Or go about trying to form this thing with no founder whatsoever?

No matter what the Legion does, though, the rest of the Catholic word will recognize the rebranding of an organization started by a fraud and a child molester. There will never be any escaping that stark fact.

I hope Legion superiors ARE reading this blog. Maybe some of them will even start to repent of their part in the biggest scam the modern Church has ever seen.

Anonymous said...

It seems like the only plausible "refoundation" would end up being a new order comprised of former legionaries.

I agree that re-branding the Legion would be tantamount to putting lipstick on a pig. Why should any good priest want to live under that cloud, and who would respect him for even trying when he has the freedom to do something authentic? You don't remodel the house when the foundation is eroding, you wreck it and start over. Is the Legion a "fixer upper" or is it a lost cause?

10 years of lies

Pete Vere said...

Anonymous 9:38 wrote:

"How do you 're-found' an order?"

It's been done several times before. Basically, you gather the people who recognize that something was deeply wrong with the old order, and are sincere about reforming it in line with Catholic teaching and practice, and you create a new group for them. You also provide them with outside advisers and depending upon the depth of the problems, outside oversight as well.

The new order serves two purposes: 1) To continue what was good in the old order; and 2) To act as a reception point and rehabilitation center for people leaving the old group.

"Early on in this mess, I remember reading that some of the LC leadership were trying to bamboozle us with the notion that Maciel wasn't the founder at all, that his canonized uncle was."

Actually, that wasn't LC/RC leadership, that was me. I proposed it as a means to help LC/RC come to grips with everything and move forward. However, it was shot down after taking fire from all sides.

Anonymous said...

Pete,

LOL! So sorry......I had totally forgotten it was YOU who floated that idea :) So nobody from the Legion even tried it on for size?? I really thought the Legion was trying it out. Guess I was wrong. I stand corrected! I can see why you would think the Legion would go for such an idea, because it fits right in with their M.O in their reaction to these revelations---throwing **** at the wall to see what will stick.

So are you talking about reforming or refounding? If you are talking about reforming, then you still have the problem that the founder of the original was a pederast fraud. And the Church holds that members of an order should follow the aims and spirit of the founder.

If you are talking about re-foundation, then WHO is the founder? The Vatican?

Or yet another option. Orders don't really need founders at all? We can just get a group of well-meaning people together, throw some rules together, and declare it an order?

I still don't see how any of those options are going to work really well (not that I'm arrogant enough to think that doesn't mean they can). The Church has gotten itself into a bit of a pickle by 1) holding the spirit of the founder to be so integral to the formation of the those in his religious order and 2) having approved an order founded by a child-molesting fraud whose spirit was one of abuse and predation.

It will be MOST interesting to see how the Vatican maneuvers through these muddy waters.

You mention other orders that have been through something similar. Are they founderless orders? Which ones are they?

Pete Vere said...

"So nobody from the Legion even tried it on for size?? I really thought the Legion was trying it out."

Go ahead and laugh, but I didn't realize when I pitched it how deeply rooted the LC/RC was in Fr. Maciel's thought. I saw this idea not as a "Get Out of Jail Free" card, but as a positive focus to help the movement go forward, separating the good from the bad.

Most of the good Fr. Maciel passed on was taken from his uncle, a canonized saint of the Church.

"So are you talking about reforming or refounding?"

At this point, refounding.

"If you are talking about re-foundation, then WHO is the founder? The Vatican?"

The Holy See, along with former members who recognize what was wrong with the old older, and are sincere about avoiding these wrongs in the future.

"You mention other orders that have been through something similar. Are they founderless orders? Which ones are they?"

The two most famous contemporary examples are the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (FSSP), which was founded by the Holy See along with several members of the SSPX who wished to remain in full communion with the Church after Lefebvre consecrated bishops without Rome's approval in 1988.

Another example, which is probably closer to home, is an order of missionary priests (I forget the name) that began when some members of the Fils de Marie (which I am told at one time was the only order permitted to fully socialize with LC priests and seminarians) recognized that their founder had serious issues, that reform would be too difficult, and that Rome would eventually have to shut down the old order.

Anonymous said...

I wasn't laughing at YOU, Pete (far be it from me to do such a thing---I had no idea how deeply the thoughts, methods, and spirit of the Great Deceiver were ingrained in the LC until recent months, either). I was laughing at myself for having been so unaware it was your idea and being so cluelessly flip about it right in front of you.

So then the Church doesn't really think founders are that big a deal? Because that's what it sounds like, if orders don't really need them after all.

Why doesn't the Holy See start more orders? What makes the Holy See decide to start an order? A desire to take something that was bad and try to make it good for the sake of the Church?

There are other movements that have come and gone, once it is revealed that their founders were frauds. What makes the Vatican decide which ones they should step in and found? I can't help but think money and power might be involved in the decision-making process.

This is why I think the Legion will NOT be disbanded. I think the Vatican does not want to lose such a money-maker/recruiting tool.

I'm cynical. Usually when I am cynical I am right. I hope I am not right this time.

Pete Vere said...

LOL! Just to be clear, I wasn't accusing you of laughing at me. I too was laughing at myself and don't mind if others join in. Despite my license in canon law, despite being considered an expert by my peers in new religious movements, despite advising ReGAIN folks for seven years, as well as people still inside the LC/RC seeking reform, despite my experience with other movements that went off the beaten path, I still did NOT recognize the depth of LC/RC allegiance to Fr. Maciel when this whole scandal broke.

In retrospect, it's funny.

Pete Vere said...

P.S. With refounding, the founders are those who leave the former order to start a new one under the Church's guidance.

What makes the Holy See permit the refounding is the seriousness of the situation with the previous order, along with the disposition of members.

If the whole movement can be reformed from within, then you are better off reforming the movement.

However, if there is too much division, or resistance to reform, or attachment by members of the old order, then you're better off taking those members loyal to the Church, permit them to refound, and provide them with some help and oversight.

This allows the Holy See to narrow the problem by removing those who are basically on-side, as it allows these folks to get on with their lives. Oftentimes, people on the inside will agree that something is wrong, but they know no other life and feel they have no place to go. So this also gives them a place to go and "detox".

This also isolates the intransigents, who then become a much smaller problem to deal with.

Put another way, it's easier to shut down an order of 50 priests than an order of 500.

Anonymous said...

And I have no doubt that that is one of the reasons Maciel&Co found "growing" to be so urgent. If you can just grow fast and hard enough, the Church will be that much more reluctant (unable?) to shut you down. Quite a survival mechanism. Archbishop O'Brien wasn't kidding when he described Maciel as an entrepreneurial genius. It's kind of a built-in guarantee! In the end, Maciel still achieves immortality through the survival of his brainchild (albeit in a form somewhat amended by the Holy See).

Thank you for all your insight, Pete. I have very much enjoyed reading your thoughts on these matters, right from the very beginning. I appreciate the time you have taken to share those with us.

Jeannette said...

Somewhat relevant here...
MissionYouth, the replacement for YTM, has San Rafael as its patron (w00t! I approve heartily)

Pete Vere said...

P.S. - ExLC, keeper of this blog and someone who has never given me bad information in our past corroboration, assures me that ER is legit.

Anonymous said...

Okay, I've had more coffee now, so if you feel the need to hurl insults, go right ahead, ER (by the way, I do NOT doubt you are true LC).

You say:

"The worst victims I regard to be Luis Garza, Sada,... all these once good people that MM corrupted and twisted so that they have a mangled or utterly destroyed moral compass. I weep for their moral ruin. I also weep for the degradations inflicted on hundreds of sexual abuse victims, only a few of whom are known publicly."

Forgive me for pulling the long-ago worn out Hitler out of the box. I'm just not any more creative than that this morning:

What you say seems pretty analogous to something like this, "The worst victims I regard to be the SS, who were so corrupted by Hitler. I also feel very bad for the people killed in the concentration camps."

Maciel's minions, just like the SS, had free will and made conscious decisions. I would not presume to determine their personal culpability. But I certainly do not weep nearly as much for those who participate in the abuse of others as I do for those children whose innocence was completely destroyed by a child molester.

Guest said...

It seems inapt at some level to be talking about "refounding" -- the term lends a sense of undeserved legitimacy (no pun intended) to LC/RC. A swindler who is found selling snake oil does not get to peddle his wares elsewhere using a different label. And the snake oil peddler is far less destructive than LC/RC.

To read the testimony of the former LC/RC people has been both heartbreaking and disgusting. LC/RC is evil. It merits only disbanding, suppression, or whatever is necessary to permanently excise this destructive cancer from Holy Mother Church. It seems that to do anything less would be to tolerate this evil -- joining in the crimes.

I agree with whoever said that present LC priests should be evaluated before being allowed to serve anywhere because of the "de-formation" they have undergone.

I hope the Vatican does not reward LC/RC for being so "good" for so long at deception -- by allowing the corrupt empire to stand -- in any form. It seems obvious now that the organization has exploited the Church -- including all of us -- with the basest motives. LC/RC has created cynicism and disillusion even among those not personally corrupted by its exploitation, deception and criminal abuse. As several commenters have said, what is there to save?

Rather, save us all from LC/RC.

"But judgment shall be revealed as water, and justice as a mighty torrent."

Anonymous said...

Just for future reference:
Edmond Ritter mistakenly posted his email as a7316fr@yahoo.com
actually, it is a7316@yahoo.it

Anonymous said...

Having a bad day or something. Should have read a7316fr@yahoo.it.
Sorry

Anonymous said...

To one of you anonymous, who think ER is too nice to his superiors:

I assure you that Hitler is more unfortunate than other sinners who sinned less. The greater are your sins, the more unfortunate you are, unless of course, you are pardoned.

I, who understand the nature of LC spirituality and have seen it applied and had it applied to me, appreciate the nature of its entrapment perhaps more than you. I believe that all LCs are drawn to the Legion not for sex or money or other vile motives. They come for higher ideals. But they are entraped spiritually and psychologically. If you could read Spanish and see how MM spun his web, for example, in Alejandro Espinosa's book, "Los legionarios"! I do not think that the matter is fundamentally important and will let it drop with this.

In another sense, the present superiors who were closest to MM do need help and more than the other victims. They may well be dangerous! They may really need to be enclosed in psychiatric hospitals and checked out for a good long while. Charity as seeking the good for the other may mean "prison" for some of ours.

Probably in this sense, you would agree that they need our authentic charity more than their victims.

Yours, ER

Anonymous said...

Thanks for making me aware of my error. I will recheck that mailbox. I am receiving mail at

knighttemple77@yahoo.com

ER

Pete Vere said...

ER,

I know you're writing from the heart, in a lot of pain, while trying to discern your future. Please take another look at what you've written here, which I believe you stated in all honesty:

"The queerest thing in the world is sitting at the refectory or dining room table, and talk about the weather, sports, politics... and not about the catastrophic crisis of the Legionaries, and our degradation.

"Can you understand that that alone can make one, who has his moral bearing still operative, nuts?! I just want to be psychologically normal, and this blog has become for me a God send for the purpose. I cannot talk to any LC: we lived in a world of fused internal and external forums in which every thought of mine of importance to me will come back to wound me.

"I come here for detox, and objective criticism.

"And some of you too have to be Legion trolls... I know. I won't mention names or posts. But the 'spiritual direction' you offer is too much like what has been offered to me by the Legionaries."

My friend, ask yourself whether this is normal. Ask yourself why you feel you cannot discuss these issues as the table. Why you feel you have to come to a website to discuss anonymously, and like adults, issues affecting you and your priesthood. How is it obedience if you feel you have to conceal your honest thoughts from your superiors and your peers?

Fr. Maciel is often said to have modeled LC/RC external trappings on the Jesuits and Opus Dei. I have several friends in each movement, and they are all able to discuss openly among themselves issues affecting their respective movement. Why don't you feel comfortable doing the same within your movement?

Anonymous said...

I am fully aware that the LC spirituality is dysfunctional, Peter. The fusion of internal and external forums reduces the LCs to smiling mannequins. It gives me the creeps when a superior smiles at me... there is distrust at the core. And even with non superiors this holds.
The spirituality must be suppressed. The congregation? We'll see. I have nowhere said I would absolutely not leave. I am waiting for a green light. That may be the Pope's verdict on the Legion.
MM probably took most of the LC spirituality from what he saw around him that worked. But the total control, that is his personal contribution. It reflects the impulse of the pederast to control, a characteristic of pederasts. Yours ER

Pete Vere said...

ER:

I'm aware that you're aware. I guest what I'm suggesting you may want to do is explore why you find it so dysfunctional. Reason it out and give it some sort of order, think it through, prioritize it, know the consequences, and be able to state everything clearly.

This way when the apostolic visitator visits you can list your reasons one by one, answer any questions clearly, and give him the maximum amount of information possible in the time allotted for your visit.

Right now (and again I am basing this only on your discussions here, so I have no idea what you're like in person) you recognize that many things are wrong, but you appear to be jumping all over place and your thoughts are sometimes expressed in nebulous stream-of-conscience-type anger. I can understand this anger, and how venting on this blog can be therapeutic, but others are then left to try and make sense of it.

Anonymous said...

Yes, exactly, Peter. And I am healing as I am working on this report, the most arduous part of which is to walk through powerful feelings that throw reason off balance. Pure vitriol is of no use in a report. So I have to keep starting over and plod onward. I think I also have more compassion on Garza and company because I figure the mess inside of me must be in them multiplied many times over, to the point of being completely unmanageable for their reason. Poor creatures! (I appreciate this blog as a real help in spilling the beans and looking them over to put some sort of order into them.) ER

Anonymous said...

Lest Father Hardon be mentioned again as an LC/RC supporter, I believe Father Hardon was onto LC/RC before he died. I know there was fallout from an LC/RC homeschooling group of which he was spiritual advisor -- except they didn't take his advice and decided to continue their attack on Seton Home School even though Father Hardon counseled against it. Perhaps someone knows more about that.