Thursday, June 12, 2008


An interview with the Archbishop by John Allen: read it and see for yourself

Interview with Archbishop Edwin O’Brien
June 11, 2008

Can you describe what led you to issue this letter?
When I came into the archdiocese, I was told by our Vicar General that there had been a long series of exchanges between the cardinal and the locals of the Legionaries about programs going on in the archdiocese that our pastors didn’t know about, didn’t know the extent of them, didn’t know the nature of them. There were seemingly heavily persuasive methods used on young people, high schoolers especially, regarding vocations.

Have the Legionaries generated a lot of vocations in Baltimore ?
I don’t know. Once again, we don’t know. They have the Woodmont school in our archdiocese. [Note: The Woodmont Academy is a private K-8 Catholic school with an enrollment of over 300 located in Cooksville , Maryland .] Academically, they’re abiding by all the expectations of our Superintendent of Education. We’ve got no problems there.

But what goes on in the one-on-one counseling … there seems to be a tendency to say, ‘We represent God. You can tell us anything, and you better believe that what we tell you is from God too. If your parents disagree, we know better. We’re in the God business, and they’re really not.’ This is a caricature, but it’s there.

They sponsor father/son weekends. The father drives 14 hours, brings the kid up to New Hampshire and drops the kid off at 11:00 at night. Where’s the farther going to stay? Well, there’s a place about 40 miles away you can stay, so the father’s sleeping in the car overnight. Next day they’re ready for the hike, but no, the fathers don’t go, it’s just the counselors and the kids. That’s the tendency.

Who’s in charge of this? Who’s responsible? Each time you meet with an official, [they say], ‘Oh, no, that didn’t happen, did it? You should have let us know right away. That’s not right.’ But it happens over and over again.

Are these activities organized by Regnum Christi?

Regnum Christi, yes. I’m really talking about Regnum Christi all the way through here. To what extent the priests are involved … the Legionaries of Christ are a religious order. My thought is that where lay people are involved, it’s called Regnum Christi. The priests are there for spiritual direction. Who’s setting the agenda? Obviously the priests are, but they’re very clever with their organization. They have several different corporations, and we can’t figure out which is which. As far as property goes, responsibility for various organizations, the Legionaries stay pretty far away on the books, though practically speaking they’re very much involved.

There’s a lack of transparency, as I’ve called it. I’ve met some extraordinarily fine members of Regnum Christi. They’ll talk about what had happened before they met Regnum Christi. Every priest they went to, they got a different story about what the church taught, and then finally they got it [from the Legionaries]. What they’re hearing usually is right. But it’s the tactics that get you. The question is, will some of these very good people be disenchanted someday? For that matter, should they be disenchanted now? Do they know all the facts? I don’t know. I’m not in there to break up Regnum Christi, I’m in there just to see that Regnum Christi is as accountable as every other group should be to the ordinary of the diocese.

What kind of response have you had to the letter?
I know Fr. Alvaro [Corcuera, Superior General of the Legionaries of Christ] from my days in Rome as rector [of the North American College .] He’s always been very cordial. I got calls from some very highly placed people in Rome when they heard this was going on, some cardinals, asking me not to do anything until I spoke with Fr. Alvaro. They said he’d take the next plane over here if I wanted. I said no, we’d wait until his next trip, which was this past week. It was cordial.

He’s in a tough spot, taking over after Maciel [Fr. Marcial Maciel Degollado, founder of the Legionaries.] I think he’s trying to straighten a number of things out. I think he’s been told to straighten a number of things out, and I want to give him a chance.

I’ve always suspected the flaws in the organization are endemic to it. There’s no remedying them, because it’s so deeply ingrained. There’s a sense of secrecy right from the seminary. The seminarians move two-by-two wherever they go. If one criticizes anything about the institution, the other one has to report it. … All this flows into Regnum Christi as well. Nothing happens in Regnum Christi without the Legionaries.

I had been thinking that this endemic, but this [the letter and the Legionaries’ response] will prove the case. I hope I’m wrong. I hope they can be at ease in working with the ordinary of the diocese, before the ordinary has to come in and say ‘I don’t want you in my archdiocese at all,’ as Archbishop Flynn did.

Have you spoken with other bishops who have had experiences with the Legionaries and with Regnum Christi?
I did, briefly. Our chancellor has called, I guess, maybe half a dozen other chanceries involved. They can almost finish the sentence, every sentence. It’s the exact same tactic everywhere. It gets me, because these are good, solid clergy I’m speaking with in the Legionaries, but they all seem to be so surprised all the time. Now if they’re really convinced that they have been misled, there’s something about their judgment that has to be called into question.

Could one say the same thing about their judgment of Fr. Maciel himself?
When I speak to the Legionary priests, they just shake their heads. There’s no attempt to defend [Maciel]. Within the community, however, I think they do [defend him]. Their whole thing is that any setback, any challenge, any obstacle is part of the cross we bear, and we’re going to grow as a result.

That was the language of their statement after the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith’s action regarding Fr. Maciel was made public.

That’s why at the core of the whole operation, I’m just wondering if there’s not a flaw that allows such blind allegiance and operations to continue. I’d love to know, for example, the percentage of priests who stay after ordination. Everything is reported … there’s nothing said even in passing to a Legionary by someone like myself that’s not recorded and reported to someone in authority.

Do you believe that any reform in the Legionaries has to involve coming to terms with the charges against Fr. Maciel?

It’s got to be faced. They really have to face it. First of all, they have to come to grips with it themselves, within their own community of Legionaries. They have to squarely face it. They need to be able to say, ‘The evidence seems to be that this man engaged in some activities that were less than honorable, and maybe even sinful.’ Of course, I don’t know what the evidence is, but …

One presumes that the CDF would not have reached the judgment it did without compelling evidence.

Absolutely. Without facing that, I think it casts a pall over any other objectivity, any other integrity, they claim to put forth as their qualifications to deal with lay people and with the Catholic church in general.

You asked in your letter of June 6 that the Legionaries appoint a priest to be a liaison with you and the archdiocese. Has that happened yet?


Who is it?

It’s the superior in Washington . I just got word on it this morning, so I don’t even know his name. Fr. Alvaro was completely open to everything we asked. In fact, here’s how it started. I had this letter, and he hadn’t seen it. No one knew about it expect our own inner sanctum. Fr. Raymond Cosgrave was with him. He’s really [Corcuera]’s right-hand man. He was over here a couple of months ago to talk about these things. That’s when I said, ‘I think it’s at the core of things and the whole operation is irremediable. No matter how much we speak, we always come back to the same point.’ I told him, ‘You mention the Legionaries of Christ to most groups of diocesan priests, and it’s the same reaction everywhere. It’s not just us and it’s not just me.’

We sat down again with Fr. Raymond the other day, who accompanied Fr. Alvaro. After Fr. Alvaro said a few things, Fr. Raymond said, ‘If only you would appoint a liaison we could work with. We’ll appoint a liaison, and he will follow every step that you suggest. If only you would give us a list of the things you want us to do, specifics.” Well, it was already in the letter, though they hadn’t seen it yet. They were asking for it. I didn’t expect that. When I showed it to them, I think they were relieved.

I think that if we’re going to have a shot at this, if it’s going to work, it will depend upon Fr. Alvaro. He said he’s working on things, but I said, ‘Father, it has to get down to the grassroots. It’s got to get down to the school up there, and to [activities in] New Hampshire and Rhode Island . We can’t wait forever for that to happen, for the seepage to take place and people get the message three years later. Fr. Alvaro said he’s working on doing that, getting the word out to everybody.

What that word will be, I don’t know. It’s going to be very hard for them to acknowledge Maciel, because Alvaro and Maciel were very close.

You also directed that they’re not to engage in one-on-one spiritual direction with anyone under 18. Are you satisfied that they’re prepared to comply with that?
They say they are. I think they see the handwriting on the wall. If they don’t, we’ll just have to take another step.

What would that other step be?
To do what St. Paul-Minneapolis did. That would be tough, because they’ve got a huge investment in that school out there. I don’t want to hurt the people, and that’s what the upshot would be. I want to give them every chance. I think they were walking along with us as we discussed things, they saw what our concern was – among other things, that there is undue influence on the part of Legionaries over very impressionable young people that not even parents have. That’s just not fair. If the parents don’t realize it, we have to awaken them to it, or at least speak up for the innocent one.

This is serious enough and important enough to you that if they don’t comply, you would be willing to take that next step of barring them from the archdiocese?
I think we’d have to.

Were there any specific incidents that led to the issuance of this letter?
No, it was just on-going stalling and lack of a real sense of cooperation. Those who are out of the Legion say that they will always yield to authority, and they themselves say that openly. One told me, ‘You tell us tomorrow to pack up and get out of here, we will pack up and get out of here, and I assure you that you will not get one nasty letter from any Regnum Christi member. That’s the way we are.’

Short of that, however, what you get is an impression of total obedience to the church, but with a ‘but.’ The impression is, ‘We’re the Legion, we do things a little differently, and the bishop really doesn’t understand. Also the priests don’t understand, because we’re Legionary priests, and the Holy See has established us to do certain things.’ There’s that kind of looking down on others, belittling them.

The Legionaries are not the only group that has attracted this kind of attention over the years. Some of what you’ve said is reminiscent of things said not so long ago about Opus Dei, for example. Do you think there’s something unique about the Legionaries?

I don’t have to deal much with Opus Dei. To my knowledge, Opus Dei is not that active in Baltimore . Even when I see them active, I find among the Opus Dei priests a lot more transparency and accountability.

Has that always been the case?
I remember years ago when I was in the New York chancery … the Holy See sends out forms each year for the Annuario [Note: the Vatican ’s annual statistical yearbook of the church], and each year they change. One in particular wanted to know about the religious in the archdiocese, how many are there and so on. The only one I couldn’t get word from was Opus Dei. They said, ‘We just don’t give that information out.’ I said, ‘Cardinal Cooke wants it.’ They said, ‘I’m sorry, the Holy See has exempted us from those things.’ I don’t think that happens anymore with Opus Dei.

Opus Dei was founded in the late 1920s and the Legionaries in the 1950s. If one wanted to be an optimist, is it possible to say that the Legionaries are moving down a path that Opus Dei and others have travelled before, and that they too will change?
I hope so, because it does a lot of good. It’s 96 percent good work, and 4 percent that’s almost a sect. It’s just 4 percent … but if it’s a question of immoral or even illegal operations, even if it’s just 1 percent, you’ve got to address it.

One could say that the Legionaries face a special challenge, because nobody accused the founder of Opus Dei or other groups of sexual abuse.

But even without that, it’s still a problem. Had those accusations never arisen, what’s going on still has to be deal with. It’s still that 4 percent. On the other hand, you’re right that this complicates it tremendously, the fact that there are accusations which have not been acknowledged.

I know all this is unpleasant for them. My letter will draw unfortunate attention to the seamier sides of their organization. I’m trying to say that I think there will be cooperation. If I didn’t think that there are real, solid grounds for trusting their commitment to this agreement, I would not have gone through it.

I’ll be completely honest. Two or three months ago, I told our Priests’ Council, ‘We’ve gone to the end. We can’t go any further, and we’ll have to ask them to leave the archdiocese.’ There was spontaneous applause.

Your priests have been supportive?
Yes, by all means.

Do some of them wish you would go further and faster?
Yes. In my last meeting with them, I had to pull back. I told them that the Holy See has asked that we wait until I have a meeting with the Superior General. They were understanding of that, but you know, the bishop still has a right in his own diocese to do certain things. I want to give it every opportunity.

Just to be clear, you had actually reached a decision to ask them to leave?

We were tantamount to doing that.

Then it was an intervention from the Holy See that asked you to meet first with Fr. Corcuera, and your letter came out of that process?
That’s right, yes.

When did the Holy See step in?
I got a call 20 minutes before my meeting with Fr. Raymond [Cosgrave] two months ago. Then I got a letter from another cardinal, and a phone call from a third cardinal the day before I met with Fr. Alvaro.

The tenor of all three was to give Fr. Corcuera a chance?
Yes. One of them said, you have the authority to take many actions here. We just ask you not to take any action until he has a chance to speak with you.

Are there any other groups in the archdiocese with which you have similar difficulties?

So this isn’t the first of other letters to other groups?
No, I certainly hope not. It isn’t pleasant. I’ve met with a number of disenchanted members of the Legionaries of Christ, who have first-hand experience. I also met, however, with ten active members of Regnum Christi. I was deeply impressed. I had known Legionaries and Regnum Christi members in passing, but this meeting was my first formal get-together. It lasted almost two hours, and I could see the anxiety, the tension, they have. They want to be faithful to the church and to the bishop, but they are also so deeply grateful and involved in the good works they see Regnum Christ doing.

That was after my first meeting with the priests, when I said that we’re going to have to take the strong action of closing them out of the archdiocese. I saw the good that was being done, but I was already on the record. People were saying, ‘You’re going to back down, you’re going to back down.’ I don’t feel I did. By the way, the reaction on both sides so far has been pretty good, meaning active Regnum Christi members and former Regnum Christi people. The ex-members are saying, ‘Do you really think they’re going to discontinue [these practices]?’ Some of them are skeptical that’s going to happen.

Knowing Fr. Alvaro, however, and because they know my resolve, I have good reason to believe that they’ll follow through. If they don’t, there’s no hiding it. Sooner or later, it’s going to come out.


Anonymous said...

What a great interview - he has them nailed (bad pun maybe). But the whole "they act so surprised" thing is a little game the LC play, where the lay people or lower totem LC's do one thing and then the Legionary superiors disavow knowledge of it - "we didn't know that, but we certainly will put a stop to it (unless it leads to more vocations and fundraising).

But yeah, he has them cold.

Anonymous said...

I think that if we’re going to have a shot at this, if it’s going to work, it will depend upon Fr. Alvaro. He said he’s working on things, but I said, ‘Father, it has to get down to the grassroots. It’s got to get down to the school up there, and to [activities in] New Hampshire and Rhode Island . We can’t wait forever for that to happen, for the seepage to take place and people get the message three years later. Fr. Alvaro said he’s working on doing that, getting the word out to everybody.

What that word will be, I don’t know. It’s going to be very hard for them to acknowledge Maciel, because Alvaro and Maciel were very close.

Alvarito will say, "Yes, yes" with his smile to your face, and then tell the LC's "No, no", as always. If they get banned, they get banned, but structurally they cannot comply with what the Cardinal is asking.

Get some popcorn, this is gonna be fun to watch.

Anonymous said...

I NEVER thought that any bishop in this country had the balls to go on record with something like this. No one can say now that he is just jealous or vindictive, or this is a cross that the LC has to bear. O'B has done his homework and gets an A+ on presentation. Let's see what kind of grade he will get on implementation.

Anonymous said...

Two or three months ago, I told our Priests’ Council, ‘We’ve gone to the end. We can’t go any further, and we’ll have to ask them to leave the archdiocese.’ There was spontaneous applause.

Man, talk about your sensus fidei...

Anonymous said...

Big balls. Brass ones. Church bells. I mean big ones. And the LC tries to push him around with phone calls from vatican cardinals - Rode prolly, others - and he says, Whatevey.

That is amazing.

Anonymous said...

You won't read that in the National Catholic Register! If we did see an interview with Archbishop O'Brien then we would know they are serious about reform. I find it hard that the Legion could ever admit to doing anything wrong.

Anonymous said...

‘We represent God...’ This is a caricature, but it’s there.

--- Bingo! Dead on reality. Not a caricature.

Anonymous said...

For an LC to read this letter is to be told:
1) There are real problems in the LC.
2) That the Abp does NOT approve of the methodology.
-- Are they going to be told?

Probably a few of them - with a very looooong 'explanation' so that they will 'understand'.

Anonymous said...

so funny, in his comments

"They’ll talk about what had happened before they met Regnum Christi. Every priest they went to, they got a different story about what the church taught, and then finally they got it [from the Legionaries]."

Telling that to the Archbishop?! Might as well tell him his priests are really subpar, lol. It says much more about you than it does about the priests.

Apostolic School Victim said...


Well after reading a specific part of that interview (the whole interview is priceless) for the first time in MANY years (and it pains me just to admit it) I have cried, and can't seem to stop. Partially out of relief after so many years, partially out of despair . . . Why despair? Well I want to know where the HELL was someone like this Bishop when my childhood, hope, happiness was raped from me? And each minute that something is not done is an eternity for those poor defenseless children in the Apostolic Schools all over the world!

Overall I am very happy with the Bishop's response, but I can't help remembering and resuffering so much I thought I had gotten completely over . . . I hope to see a much harsher response from other diocese.

I am not sure if anyone else had to think twice about him getting phone calls, letters, etc. from members of the Holy See about waiting to talk to Alvaro??? I don't like it and don't TRUST him one bit (and we were pretty close once).

I am glad though that it appears like ALL of the priests in the Baltimore Diocese have a GREAT desire to get rid of the LC. Good for them!!!

Anonymous said...

As good as the interview was, the bishop is still being manipulated. The whole bit about how Corcuera hadn't seen the letter, but just happened to desire everything that was in the letter. And he was surprised and relieved when he actually saw the letter! Give me a break!