From Catholic Light: By Pete Vere on September 23, 2009 2:26 PM
Hi Lucien,
I can understand where you're coming from, and think you raise valid points.
Having said that, the Church has often had good experiences with reconstitutions or similar acts whereby the Church reorganizes into a new institute former members who recognize their movement had gone astray. Here are some notable examples:
- The FSSP and Le Barroux Monastery out of the SSPX.
- Missionary Society of Mandeville out of the Army of Mary/Sons of Mary.
- Society of St. Vincent Ferrer out of sedevacantism.
- Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Church out of the sedevacantist CMRI, which itself had been an internal sede-reconstitution after being founded or taken over by a notorious pedophile and drug addict using sedevacantism as his cover (Please note I am NOT referring to sede-Bishop Marc Pivarunas, the current CMRI superior, who I am told was instrumental in the CMRI rejecting the unnatural proclivities of its original founder.)
- Madonna House was a reconstitution of a Catholic movement that got taken over by left-wing ideologues. (The interesting thing here is that it was the founder herself who realized what happened to her original movement, reconstituting after a failed attempt to reform her original movement.)
- The Knights of St. Peter Claver was in many ways a reconstitution of the Knights of Columbus in the Deep South, during they heyday of segregation, when four priests were appalled to discover that good Catholic laymen had been rejected from the KofC because of skin color.
For the record, as a brother knight (Fourth Degree and Advocate of my council), as well as Past Supreme Vizier of the International Order of Alhambra, I apologize to any Knight of St. Peter Claver and African-American Catholic whose ancestors were rejected for membership in the KofC or Alhambra because of skin color. It is also my prayer that one day the three orders can be reunited while preserving their distinctive pasts.
- In our diocese, we have a community that in many ways is a reconstitution of several other previous local manifestations of movements that had gone awry.
- Missionary Society of Mandeville out of the Army of Mary/Sons of Mary.
- Society of St. Vincent Ferrer out of sedevacantism.
- Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Church out of the sedevacantist CMRI, which itself had been an internal sede-reconstitution after being founded or taken over by a notorious pedophile and drug addict using sedevacantism as his cover (Please note I am NOT referring to sede-Bishop Marc Pivarunas, the current CMRI superior, who I am told was instrumental in the CMRI rejecting the unnatural proclivities of its original founder.)
- Madonna House was a reconstitution of a Catholic movement that got taken over by left-wing ideologues. (The interesting thing here is that it was the founder herself who realized what happened to her original movement, reconstituting after a failed attempt to reform her original movement.)
- The Knights of St. Peter Claver was in many ways a reconstitution of the Knights of Columbus in the Deep South, during they heyday of segregation, when four priests were appalled to discover that good Catholic laymen had been rejected from the KofC because of skin color.
For the record, as a brother knight (Fourth Degree and Advocate of my council), as well as Past Supreme Vizier of the International Order of Alhambra, I apologize to any Knight of St. Peter Claver and African-American Catholic whose ancestors were rejected for membership in the KofC or Alhambra because of skin color. It is also my prayer that one day the three orders can be reunited while preserving their distinctive pasts.
- In our diocese, we have a community that in many ways is a reconstitution of several other previous local manifestations of movements that had gone awry.
Add to that the fact that many inside the LC/RC, both among the rank-and-file and the middle management, feel the same way as LC/RC critics on the outside (Who do you think is feeding journalists, bloggers and the church hierarchy?) They understand there are serious problems with the movement, that Maciel's sins affected the movement's structures and methodology, that victims are owed an apology, and they are themselves calling for a reconstitution under new leadership appointed from the outside by the Holy See. So I see a lot of good faith there.
Of course, they won't immediately understand the depth of the problem, or all the consequences, but that's why outside leadership is brought in by the Holy See to oversee reconstitution. As long as current members understand that there's a problem, and that it's serious, and that they need outside help to fix it, there's hope. Remember that the bulk of LC/RC membership didn't sign up with the movement to cover-up for a pedophile or malign his victims.
64 comments:
You're joking right? The good hearted members of RC can simply join parish groups, no need for the RC since all they did was control your time and money to, well, to control other people's time and money who in turn ... you get where I'm going. The RC was just a self perpetuating machine to feed itself, that was its end and any means was acceptable.
The whole methodology is about CONTROL...and they do use brainwashing techniques to do so. There is nothing worth saving here...nothing original, no real charism...just borrow bits and pieces here and there. If you think about it, the LC/RC drained away sooo much good that could have been done with all that time and money....sooo much good, never to have gotten down.
Time to turn off the lights on this one folks.
THE_Br._Dan
Thanks Peter. Your position seems to be identical to my own. If the Pope wants to suppress the LC, then let the damned thing be suppressed! But if he sees it has a chance reconstituted in new form or with a new management, then let's go for it, those of us inside who can.
I am more convinced each day that the LC is in the hands of insane people, but not everyone here is insane. Many are simply uninformed, and they must be informed by authority. The Pope must speak clear to his Legionaries if they are to understand what has happened to them, and why. Then a reconstitution is possible and feasible -- once elementary truth and justice has been established.
God has done this sort of thing before: it's Salvation and Redemption. Adam and Eve -- both insane in their rebellion and sin -- beyond redemption? Not even they. Now the Church sings their ruin as the "Happy Fault that obtained for us such a Redeemer" each year at the vigil mass of Easter Sunday. I do not believe I am abusing analogy. I believe God reapplies this same method every time a sinner walks out of the confessional absolved. If God wants it, and if the Legionaries are not totally insane but respond generously and humbly, why cannot the same happen for their stricken institute?
Edmond Ritter
Thank you so much, ER, for your clear and beautiful commentary. What a contrast to the pathetic babbling and spin from Fr. Alvaro, and now Fr. Scott.
ER,
Do you think even a reconstituted Legion could survive long term with Marcial Maciel as its founder?
Even if the leadership is removed, what is the charism of the Legion of Christ? Where and through whom did that charism originate?
I'm not asking to be argumentative. The charism/foundation is the core issue that needs to be addressed.
ER,
Do you think even a reconstituted Legion could survive long term with Marcial Maciel as its founder?
Even if the leadership is removed, what is the charism of the Legion of Christ? Where and through whom did that charism originate?
I'm not asking to be argumentative. The charism/foundation is the core issue that needs to be addressed.
I have to tell you Edmond Ritter..I see no "humbly" right now in many LCs reactions...many are going on about all the good that we have. One priest is sending daily emails with testimonies of good stuff. It is not time for that. Humility says, stop, pray, beg forgiveness, admit you are wrong, ask those who left what can be fixed and how, talk to all these bloggers who have yelled for years. I see none of that and it makes me sad.
It is a good question to consider what would be the charism of a refounded order. Despite any official pronouncements about their charism, I think the de facto charism is ministry to the rich and powerful, with a stated goal of a sort of trickle-down evangelization. This might have once had some good faith behind it, but the corrupting influences are strong.
What do you think? Was this ever a valid charism? Would a reconstituted order continue down this same path? What safeguards could be created to prevent corruption?
What is a charism? I thought it was a gift from the Holy Spirit? Can we just whip something Catholic-sounding up and decide it is a charism?
I'm bothered by the notion of a re-founding in which somebody just randomly pulls a charism out of their ear and assigns it as the new charism for the reformed LC/RCs. Mostly because it seems that is exactly what Maciel did, and it worked quite well for him for 65 years.
There has to be more to charisms that just getting a group of people together, giving them a goal that sounds Catholic and good, and announcing that they have a charism. Doesn't there?
These are difficult questions: what is the charism of a foundation? How do you tell an authentic founder and its charism? What "types" of founders exist? Yes, from an article that was sent to me by a confrere, I see that there are at least 7 types. The first type is the "charismatic founder", such as St Ignatius of Loyola and Mother Teresa of Calcutta. The last type listed by the author is the "putative" founder: the one who really did not found it but by subterfuge, steals the credit. My confrere and I spontaneously classified MM as a putative founder. Another article approaches the question of charism of foundation from a theological perspective rather than historical. Any one can found an institution, ecclesial or secular, but to found a specifically religious institute characterized by the living of the evangelical councils, you need someone that is that: religious. Some sort of personal holiness is required. Ergo, MM's status as "founder", in anything more than a juridical sense, is questionable indeed. I am sorry I cannot provide links because both articles are not on the internet. I have pdf files from scanned hard copies. I list them below and will email them to exLCblogger. Perhaps he will want to publish a portion of them, and seek the permissions for doing so. The articles:
(1) "The Double Life and the Undivided Heart. Reflections on religious orders in view of the Maciel disgrace" in 'Catholic World Report', July 2009 issue, R. Michael Dunnigan, JD, JCL.
(2) "Typology of Founders" in "CpR 79 (1998) 95-119" (This is all I have identifying the source, which is a canon law journal), George Nedungatt, S.J.
On the second to last page, Nedungatt describes the Putative Founder. "Finally, we should not be surprised if, like the false prophets of the Old Testament, pseudo-founders... of religious institutes have sprung up alongside genuine and holy ones... Their motives can be as varied as those of the pseudo-prophets of old: career, money, fame, etc... As for the religious institute itself, it is not to be excluded that it can be, irrespective of the motives of its founder, a fruitful means of sanctity and apostolate, just as an invalid marriage can be fruitful in offspring. There is no stigma on those who, in good faith, have joined an institute started by a pseudo-founder; they may even scale the heights of holiness by the faithful and trustful use of the divine gift in their call."
We LCs still can hope. He provides some historical examples but I cannot rewrite everything here.
ER
ER,
Interesting points!
So who do you think Maciel stole the role of founder from? Who did Maciel steal the credit from?
As for the pseudo-founder idea, it seems to me that the very twistedness of the LC/RC methodology makes it clear that this is not a case of an order being a way to scale the heights of holiness despite its founder. It appears to be an organization that churns out twisted minions who are the exact product of the very structure of the organization.
From the multiple stories of abuse that run rampant throughout the LC/RC, it seems pretty apparent that any holiness attained through this outfit is attained despite the structure of the order, not because of it.
Any vehicle of use and abuse cannot at the same time be a fruitful method of sanctity for those committing the abuse. And many, many well-meaning LC/RCs have participated unwittingly in the abuse of souls as a result of the Maciel methodology and structure.
Sign and Counter-Sign
R. Michael Dunnigan, JD, JCL.
http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=9076
http://www.mercurio.cl/2009/09/19/el_sabado/reportajes/noticias/5523CC6D-8C99-41E0-9F45-628BF0650F02.htm?id={5523CC6D-8C99-41E0-9F45-628BF0650F02}
Dunnigan's article is the most important thing written about the Legion and RC this year.
Excellent.
Maciel was an artist of the corruption of consciences and governing structures. I agree with the assessment above regarding the perverseness and demonic of the LC structure. Do not look for the actual government of the LCs to rectify the situation. They are in need of help themselves. They are incapable of themselves. I continue to believe in miracles and do not exclude that the LC may be right and thriving in 20 years' time. ER
I see three types of LC priests still in the LC:
1) Evil (Garza, Sada, Hopkins, etc)
2) "Dumb blondes" (Morris, Reilly,etc)
3) Cowards
Are we to believe that the LC will be a wonderful order if the first kind are gotten rid of? Go ahead and try but it'll die out.
In fairness, there is a 4th type of LC priest -- those who are hopeful that the something good may be salvageable out of the ashes, but are also willing to accept that the whole thing may need to be scrapped. Waiting for the Holy See to act is not cowardice.
Don, I guess we disagree on whether their silence is cowardly. I don't think they need the pope's permission to defend the wronged and acknowledge that Maciel's victims have suffered injustice. They silently stood by and sometimes participated in the terrible, mortally sinful lies about Juan Vaca, Jose Barba et al. The only one who emerged with his integrity intact was Thomas Berg, and he's gone now too.
".....and what I have failed to do."
Let's reflect a little more on the LC "charism"...
Where or from whom did MM steal the charism of "founder" from? First of all from Jesus Christ, the Founder of the Catholic Church and therefore of every institution within her. Then from each Legionary. I cannot list all the sacrifices each LC has made so that MM could appear on stage and be credited for the work of many nameless and generous (brain-washed, naive...) Fathers and Brothers, that in the final analysis turned out to be better than himself. What indignation I have suffered thinking about it. Honorable mention should no doubt go to the early "co-founders" (irony warning) like Fr Augustino Pardo, the real founder of the Anahuac University in Mexico. MM was perhaps drugged, or in an orgy, or possibly both, while this courageous priest hunted down money and resources, so that MM could later take credit for that foundation. How do I know? I was not there, but I reasonably piece together what Fernando Gonzalez tells us in his book, and Pardo's fame among us Legionaries, plus what we all know now about MM. With Padre Pardo there are many others, like Cuena. And why not include Paul Lennon? He started the School of Faith, an operation I cooperated with years after his departure. These are the REAL founders (not co-founders). We are supposed to feel honored for being "co-founders"? These men slaved to found while the founder lived like a decadent satrap. And now, barring an entirely understandable suppression of MM's harem, there will be a refounding, or something like that. The founders will be those who have the faith NOW to believe that this whore house can become a religious congregation. NOW THAT IS FAITH! If not a pathological condition. And on top of that, the new founders will have to take the egg in the face that MM is not around to share. What is that ditzyblond? Cowardice? It's not the first epithet that comes to my mind. Terms like "lunacy", "spaced-out", "disconnected", and "brain-washed sect member" dance across my monitor. But to stand before the world of the righteously indignant and say, "Yes, I wear the cassock of a Legionary!" -- I am not sure that is the act of a coward. It takes simple madness, or maybe a little madness, a lot of FAITH with a brass pair. (Oh, about not speaking out, I did, and I would like to continue... but now, like John outside the tomb of the resurrected Christ, I shall give deference to Peter to assess the facts of the matter.)
Will a reconstituted Legion long survive? There's no way of knowing. That's part of the fun and adventure of a new foundation! That's where our merit before God is, in the FAITH that we put in His WORD within us (not Maciel's word). Christ says to the lame man, "Get up and walk!" And he has to take the risk of Faith that he will not fall on his face. He has to believe that Christ is good and powerful to realize his Word spoken to him in the depths of his heart, in spite of his clear knowledge of the fact of his lameness. It is safer, humanly speaking, to remain seated. If your goal is what human prudence assesses as "security", then clearly you do not have a vocation for this re-foundation.
Finally, about the reality of a spirituality featuring the "CEO-priest", well you've got me. I used to smile at the anomaly. Christ, meek and modest, appearing in the 20th century under the form of a Harvard MBA leading and IBM. Under the splendor of MM's "sanctity", I was ready to let it pass as another sign of God's sense of humor. That's gone, and all I can say is that I don't know.
Thank you, Rev. Michael Dunnigan (I am not sure you are a Reverend), for your act of charity of instructing us in the truth. To instruct the ignorant and misguided is the greatest of the spiritual works of mercy. I, at least, am grateful.
ER
"It is safer, humanly speaking, to remain seated. If your goal is what human prudence assesses as "security", then clearly you do not have a vocation for this re-foundation."
Me? Is that your final answer?
No D. I am not speaking to you individually in this phrase, or trying to recruit you. I am not sure I am recruiting myself, yet. Let's wait to see what the Pope says. What I meant is that anyone crazy enough to continue here (given the Pope's blessing) must have a special vocation (and maybe be slightly touched as well). I might be one of those. You?: you consult God and yourself. I am not telling you to join or rejoin. Relax. Also I don't care about being called coward. I've been called worse. ER
Of course it must be a "special" vocation, as opposed to all the other people with just ordinary vocations. You're special. Not only so special to be a legionary by to be part of the refounded legion.... a re-cofounder, which of course is more special than just a cofounder... hahahahhahaha
Yes, you have been chosen from all eternity to be a re-cofounder as it was God's will for MM to fall and diddle boys under his care and impregnate young women that he was a spiritual founder of. Meanwhile, book me on the next Concorde flight.
All vocations are special, because each human being is unique. This is a truth that should not be allowed to become a truism. God so troubles Himself over each one of us. Since it is God who calls each one by name, each vocation is irrepeatable. Quite touching really... Spiritual exercises start today. On the 5th or 6th of October, Mons. Versaldi will come with his helpers to start his visit in Rome. Let's pray for this intention, that it may signal a new beginning for the Legionaries. On August 29, a Brother gave a panegyric in Termini lauding the virtues of the Saint of the day (Passion of St John the Baptist), and comparing his virtues to those of St Marcial Maciel.
No, please don't bother vomiting. I cannot even be scandalized anymore. I am just numbed and bored. Time to change the CD and move on. Mons. Versaldi: we need you! Benedict: we need you! ER
I better add a little more code on how to interpret my last contribution. That brother of the panegyric is almost certainly not evil but simply victim to the common misinformation cocoon in which we live. I was being ironic in saying "St" Maciel... lest someone think he really is canonized within the Legion. But no, the brother sincerely lauded St John the Baptist as sharing some virtues that he believes Maciel has. This is a sure sign that he has no idea of the pederasty and its grand scale. I am writing in part so that other LCs can read this and perhaps finally be awakened to how low we have fallen in self-deception. Is Edmond Ritter evil for reporting this? Is he betraying them and the LC? Is it not rather the case that he is trying to wake them up to their plight, and doing them an act of charity and justice?
In a normal house, if uncle Joe has a drinking problem, its generally kept in the family. It's a matter of honor, of justifiable "discretion". But there is a line that is crossed here in the Legionaries. Uncle Joe has become a menace to the whole family and society (even though MM is dead, the LC is pathological and in need of help from outside). Therefore, mine here is not an act of betrayal but an attempt to help my brothers, whom I love, find clarity.
I am grieving too for the shock that they cannot be spared of being exposed to all the truth of MM. What's it like for a man to walk into his house and find his wife with another man? He can lose his head and kill both. One could hardly blame him. Each LC in his own way must come to know that MM has betrayed them in a similar or worse fashion. It will be difficult to find the way to channel the explosion, but the pain of such hateful betrayal must be faced and borne. And that's another intention to pray for in these exercises. Healing will then be a long process, but at last it will be able to begin. And then we can start thinking realistically of restitution, asking pardon, setting the scales of justice right. I don't think it is enough to apologize to all the victims of MM. Those courageous ones who were able to speak the truth -- they no doubt had to do "open heart surgery" on themselves to bring out their horrendous truth -- they have delivered us all from evil by their courageous insistence on making the truth known. To them we owe heartfelt gratitude, and if the Legion survives MM's iniquities, we will owe to them that its refounding was made possible on a real basis by their heroic testimony at such cost to themselves. God reward and compensate them, beloved brothers of ours! Who, then, are the real founders of the Legion? They, courageous truth sayers. Vaca, Espinosa, Barba, and all the rest. For them especially, our prayers of gratitude and love in these spiritual exercises.
er
I'm special, you're special, we're all special..........shall we all hold hands and sing Kumbaya?
"That brother of the panegyric is almost certainly not evil but simply victim to the common misinformation cocoon in which we live"
He is much more than a victim of misinformation. He is a victim of deep malformation, to which the misinformation over the past 65 years has contributed.
These priests need serious help. As in serious counseling and deprogramming to help try to undo so much of the Maciel methodology.
I would not trust any priest (including you, ER) of a "reformed" Legion, not until they had been through a serious cooling-off, deprogramming, re-formation, whatever you want to call it.
Any priest/brother who is still revering and expressing deep gratitude to the child-molesting fraud is not a priest I want in any position of power and influence any time in the near future. I don't know how to fix them. I don't know if they CAN be fixed. I'm virtually sure they can't be fixed if they don't recognize how broken they are in the first place.
Perhaps if these men were able to live for a year or two in a real religious community, some of the twistedness could be undone. But I just don't see how that could be accomplished practically speaking.
I, for one, would not be confident in having any of them in a position of influence anytime in the near future, any more than I would want a cult member fresh out of the cult to be administering to people less in need than they themselves are.
These priests need HELP. And so far the Legion hasn't even shown recognition there is a problem. One priest in particular I am thinking of. I predict he will be dead within three years. He is one of the older ones, one who loved Maciel like a father and to this day cannot give up on the idea the pederast was truly saintly. I love this priest, and it angers me beyond words to see what this order has done to this gentle soul. He has aged unbelievably since the news broke. I don't see any sign that the Legion has attempted to get help for these men, and it is just more of the same old abuse to allow this suffering to go on unabated.
You can call it insanity all you want, ER, but I will call it what it is: evil, plain and simple.
Yes, God can bring good out of all evil, and I will pray that He does in this situation. But that doesn't change the fact the evil is still being perpetrated to this day, and there is nothing noble about remaining in an order perpetrating evil.
ER - God has given you a wisdom inside of LC that obviously others do not have and cannot see. You have to keep speaking this truth...and get it out there. You are a voice that is needed. Why don't you write a letter to all your brothers and share the truth? Who cares if they kick you out - you may be their only hope of truth.
ER: "Where or from whom did MM steal the charism of "founder" from? First of all from Jesus Christ, the Founder of the Catholic Church and therefore of every institution within her. Then from each Legionary."
With sincere respect, ER, this is a mistaken understanding of "charism." Jesus Christ founded His Church by instituting the hierarchy through the apostles. Bishops, diocesan priests, diocesan deacons, laity.
Beginning in the late 3rd century, the Church began to permit some persons to stand partly outside that ordinary structure, as monks and nuns (and in much later centuries as "active" religious, such as the Legionaries). But to be outside of the ordinary, diocesan structure of the Church, an institution needs a specific charism -- which is a particular WAY of following Christ based on the example, rule and writings of a religious founder.
There's no such thing as a charism of "ordinary Catholicism" or "just following Christ" as some RC have recently suggested. That's what your bishop is for.
Without a distinctive charism, the existence of the Legion (or any other congregation) cannot be justified, no matter how many good works its members perform. And a distinctive charism comes only from the founder.
The Legion's fundamental problem is that a religious charism can't be based on the example, rule and writings of a really bad man, such as Marcial Maciel. There are a few cases in which smaller orders have founders who are not canonized, but no examples of orders founded by real scoundrels like Maciel.
Unless the Legion is dissolved and re-founded, it will have no charism. And without that, it cannot exist.
I think that so many comments just miss the mark. First before going anywhere, you must define "CHARISM", then you can decide if a "CHARISM" can be given to the L.C.s
People in these discussions often get all sorts of notions mixed up.
There are generally two types of Charism: the Charism of the Founder and the Founding Charism.
Often people confuse both. For instance, it is clear that the Jesuits come from the Charism of the Founder... The Pontifical Institute for Foreign Mission [The Pimme Fathers of Italy] have a "Founding Charism". In one case the Founder receives a gift and passes it on. In another, the Church ESTABLISHES a community, an order, or whatever for a purpose.
It is now clear that the L.C. is going through terrible woes and throes. The Charism of the Founder is non-existant. That does not impede the Church, however, to look at the gift of Consecrated Life and to establish something new for this group of men. In this case the FOUNDER is the CHURCH itself who interprets the vows, gives the mission and sends them off.
Reread canons 575 and 576
The examples quoted are interesting indeed: the Monastery of Le Barroux, the Sisters of Mary, the Missionary Society of Mandeville etc... This last institute has an interesting story as they were founded by a Bishop, a canonist, who knew what to do. One of their members has an interesting blog.www.journeyrofayoungpriest.blogspot.org. I think some LCs who are missionary minded would find in them good companions. Quite an interesting comment, Mr. Vere
http://journeyofayoungpriest.blogspot.com/
QUANTUM MATERIAE
MATERIETUR MARMOTA
MONAX SI MARMOTA
MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI?
This supposed contrast between a "founding charism" and a "charism of the founder" sounds like more mental gymnastics from the Legion. Do any non-Legion theologians make this distinction?
As for Canons 575 and 576, they hardly support the idea that a religious charism can exist without a founder to transmit it.
Can. 575: "The evangelical counsels, based on the teaching and example of Christ the Master, are a divine gift which the Church received from the Lord and which by His grace it preserves always."
Can. 576: "It is the prerogative of the competent authority in the Church to interpret the evangelical counsels, to legislate for their practice and, by canonical approval, to constitute the stable forms of living which arise from them. The same authority has the responsibility to do what is in its power to ensure that institutes grow and flourish according to the spirit of their founders and to their sound traditions.
It all comes back to the spirit of the founder, which defines the charism and provides the source of renewal for all forms of religious life. If your founder is a utterly depraved, you have no charism and no source of renewal. Thus, the long term possibilities for the Legion are only two:
1. Dissolution.
2. Dissolution and re-foundation of something new.
http://blogs.21rs.es/trastevere/2009/09/28/el-obispo-ricardo-watty-urquidi-recibe-a-los-dos-hijos-mayores-de-maciel-acompanados-de-su-madre/#comments
I protest these disquisitions on charism: they are becoming too abstract. The question is simple. Do we or do we not accept blindly the "spirituality" of a pederast who has made us incapable of discerning right from wrong, and standing up like men and saying NO!
Let the canon lawyers, or better, the theologians parse the meanings of charism.
Anonymous: I do believe I smell the hide of a Legionary, or even of several. Good nose.
ER
You are all very wrong in your assumptions.. The canonist who wrote the above, and who is writing again this evening, is not even REMOTELY linked to the LCs or any of these issues. He is just a professor of canon law and an advisor to an episcopal conference on issues of the sort. My Doctoral thesis was in a way linked to this issue, although not directly.
Those distinctions brought forward are very real distinctions and commonplace. Let me explain: from this Blog is is clear that MM DID NOT HAVE A CHARISM [i.e. Charism of the Founder]. That is why your whole edifice is collapsing. That is why I say, DEFINE what you mean by CHARISM, THEN discuss. It is just good methodology.
In the History of the Church there are MANY INSTITUTES that never had the CHARISM of a FOUNDER, because they were founded by the Church for a specific purpose, to respond to a certain need. Example of these institutes? The Foreign Mission Society of America, the PRETRES DE LA MISSION of PARIS, the PIMME FATHERS OF ITALY, the GUADALOUPAN FATHERS of MEXICO and the list goes on and on ! NONE OF THESE have a "Founder" in the sense that we would attribute to, let say St. Dominic, St. Ignatius, St. Benedict (which seems to be the sense the word "Charism" is used in these discussions).
There is no hidden Legionary here. Far from it. I am just as flabbergasted, hurt and dismayed. But, ER, your comment shows how you mix up notions. In your comment, you equate, when you ask your question, spirituality with charism. Now, a whole SEMESTER of classes could be given on these two notions. Lets not get carried away. I am bringing notions to help you think, reflect and perhaps help anyone who feels lost in this discussion.
As the first person wrote: "Dissolution and re-foundation of something new". Well, in this case, it would be, obviously a "FOUNDING CHARISM" and not the CHARISM OF A FOUNDER because, to use bad english, "There aint no founder here !"
It seems we're all in agreement, then: The Legion could have a charism if it were founded anew by the Church (i.e., dissolving Maciel's Legion and establishing a new, Maciel-free institution to which most current LCs would be invited to join).
Of necessity, that means that the Legion as it stands right now, having been founded and shaped in almost every detail by Marcial Maciel, HAS NO CHARISM.
Agreed?
-- the Anonymous from 9/26 at 1:15 p.m. and 9/28 at 9:21 a.m.
My sincere apologies for any unintended offense. I certainly have nothing against cannon law or its professors. What was on my mind was that we Legionaries are so far from acknowledging the premises of your discussion that unfortunately it is beyond us. We have not even acknowledged that MM was a pederast, let alone the immediate consequences. You are talking about flying to those who cannot walk, or crawl.
The way I understand the issue is that MM may have been a mediator of something, but its origin is irreparably clouded by his evil life, grossly antithetical to the Gospel. Therefore, it is as if nothing had been transmitted from God. Therefore, we have to start from scratch. In theory, it is possible that something from God actually got through. Remember the passage from St John, in which the Evangelist emphatically states that Caiphas, the highpriest, had spoken under influence of the Holy Spirit when he prophesied that it is better for one man to die for the benefit of the people than that the whole people die? It is just possible that a few sparks of the divine "squeaked through" (pardon my technical lingo) but a few pins in a hay stack might as well be zero. MM cannot found a spirituality any more than Caiphas. The Church prudently must start anew in discerning whether the Legion has any sort of "charism" at all.
Does the LC have a charism? I think the question similar in its order to the question "Did Caiphas prophesy from the Holy Spirit?". We all now know that he did. But at that moment we would have had no means of knowing it. Nothing in the wicked life of Caiphas would have permited such an assumption. But nothing in his life could have blocked the omnipotence of the Holy Spirit if He wished to put something in the "mule's mouth" (as God did in the mouth of Balaam's ass). THEREFORE, the Church should proceed with caution to assure herself that there is no charism, but always open to the possibility that there may be in fact, to the astonishment of all, a charism buried under so much muck. If so, She must dredge it up, and clean it. The parable of the dragnet and the fine pearl repeats itself. Respect for God's gifts requires this caution.
ER
ER,
Caiaphas indeed was, inadvertently, speaking through the promptings of the Holy Spirit. There are countless other examples in Scripture and history of God's working great marvels and conveying truth through weak instruments. And, of course, the Sacraments themselves are conveyed to us by Christ ex opere operato, without regard to the worthiness or sanctity of the priest who confers them upon us.
Unfortunately for the Legion, the standard for transmitting a charism for RELIGIOUS life is actually much higher, higher even than the standard for confecting valid Sacraments.
The religious/consecrated life is one of radical witness to the Gospel. Where religious congregations fall short of this, they need renewal, which entails returning to the spirit of their Founder, and his or her writings and example.
R. Michael Dunnigan has written probably the best reflection on this issue around:
http://www.unitypublishing.com/NewReligiousMovements/LCNow2009.htm
Bottom line: a religious congregation with a corrupt founder simply can not stand, no matter how many good and holy people are within it.
Thank You, Edmond. You are thinking logically and almost like a canonist.If ever you need to contact me, just whistle: "anonymous canonist" in this Blog and I will find a way to reach you ! You are a good priest.
Help me understand the distinction between the two types of charism:
So the first is a founding charism, a gift given from the Holy Spirit to a founder, which the founder then passes on to his religious congregation.
The second type seems to me to be more of a mission statement: The Church sees a need, gets a group of Catholic religious together, and assigns them a charism. Or the Church sees a group performing a certain task especially well and declares that to be their charism. Am I correct? Is this 2nd kind of charism also recognized as being a gift from the Holy Spirit in the same way as a Founding Charism?
The second type seems like more of just a natural talent (of which we ALL have some) or a created talent (Church determines a need and assigns it to a group). This kind of charism seems much more of a human construct, one that could then be changed if the needs of the Church changed or the talents of the group assigned the charism changed.
Am I misunderstanding this? Quite frankly,, the 2nd type doesn't seem to be much more than a directive from the Church. "Here's your Charism---live it, and we will support you in it as you fulfill this much-needed mission".
Correct. Remember though, that the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ and as such, a "directive" from her CAN be a founding charism, or "mission" as it were. Indeed, doesn't our Catholic Faith tell us that the Church is assisted in a special way by the Holy Spirit? In the first case,when the Spirit gives a gift to a Founder, [a REAL one] let us say it is a more "direct" action of the Spirit. In the second case, it is "mediatd" through the Church yet still a gift of the Holy Spirit... However, the spiritual fruits can be just as great. The Pretres des Missions Etrangeres de Paris, for instance, gave a good number of Martyrs and Saints to the Church... The PIMME Fathers spent endless hours in mission lands as did the Scarboro Fathers of Canada or again the Heralds of the Gospel of the Philippines. Isn't that also beautiful ? Remember that the CHURCH is always, always the final arbiter in the interpretation of Consecrated Life and its mission in the Church. If the Church dissolves the LC, it is because the Church will recognise that there had been NO Charism from the start in the light of these terrible revelations ! Then, after hard questions are answered, the Church MAY decide to form a new group and give them a Mission. This new "charism" if you will will have NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LC AS IT WAS KNOWN.
Just today I was reading something about the Medjugorie affair. Some "communities" were basing their whole structure on the "apparitions". Now what are they going to do after the recent declarations [c.f Catholic Light] ???
It is always very very important to remember to keep our witts around our heads, and remember very important distinctions.
Blessings on all the LC and EX-LCs who are working through these very difficult times.
Your friendly Anonymous Canonist, JCD [1992]
ER - You are grasping at straws. But that is what happens in denial. When you invest so much of yourself into something, you have to believe, you have to hope. I will pray for you. At this point, it is intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.
No one should think that I have a disordered attachment to the so called spirituality of Maciel. My difficulty in just throwing the whole damn thing out from one day to the next is that if the Church really does wish to keep this group of people around that presently call themselves "Legionaries", if only to run the complex of schools already set up, they will need continuity in their lives. They cannot reasonably start from zero tomorrow, and indeed, if the Church wants to keep them working their schools, the reality of their schools itself forces us to acknowledge that their new mission will not be 100 percent new and different from the old mission they had under Maciel. In some sense, therefore, it is too theoretical to say that the "spirituality must be absolutely new and start from zero". It will be new but for us human beings that cannot change absolutely on a dime, the change will have to proceed gradually. The "principle of graduality" perhaps applies here? Yours, ER
Sorry ER, I disagree. The schools can have new boards to run them which isn't that difficult at all to do. The LC's exit and others take their place. Just think of all the big institutions over the last year that were taken over by the FDIC.... Or large organizations that change control after someone buys the controlling amount of stock. Happens all the time. Perhaps the schools get turned over to the Dioceses, SJ, or others. It would be like a prepackaged bankruptcy...like with GM which is far larger than the LC. It can be done and it will be done. It will be best to have "this group of people that presently call themselves "Legionaries"" completely detached from the present organizations. Sorta of like a reverse of the takeover tactic that the LC's did for decades....the irony. As I said in the previous post, you're grasping at straws which is understandable. TBD
ER,
And this is exactly my concern. You are right, the LC/RC cannot "change their mission" on a dime. This is precisely my concern with the schools; children should not bear the brunt of the LC need to change slowly. The LC DO need time to come to realize just how twisted the Maciel spirituality is. The LC priests at our local school still express gratitude to the Father Founder (albeit, not in front of the children---at least not that I am aware of), and one of them has mentioned his certainty that Maciel is in Heaven interceding for the LC. These are not men who should be involved in forming the spirituality of the young. They are men who need---and deserve---the chance to work own their own spiritual deformities in some peace and quietude. They do NOT need to keep working, working, working to "build the Kingdom" while giving a bit of lip service to change.
We have already seen just how much the Legionaries can change left to their own devices (after the 2006 communique). Nada. They will have to be forced to change by some outside agency, and being forced to change is never a pleasant experience. Running schools and apostolates, recruiting and fundraising, etc, etc, are not activities conducive to interior change. The continued busy-ness will only give them a chance to avoid change----and to continue forming children with the twistedness of their Father Founder.
I completely agree that change won't happen overnight, likely it won't happen at all for some deeply-ingrained lovers of the Father Founder. This is precisely why the schools need to be taken out of their hands, for the sake of everybody involved.
Your positions seem reasonable. I don't want anyone who takes a pederast as a model or saint near kids or for that matter, seminarians and their formation (ehem, yes, I mean in the College in Rome). The visitators have a tough job, and Benedict XVI too if he wants to save the LC. What's damming is the Legionarie's serious brainwashing. It is that. I see it. And am taken for a treasonous nut case on account of it. ER
Vote with your pocketbook and feet. No more money and leave this group.
E.R.,
Have you been interviewed yet by your respective Visitor?
Peace.
-mExRC
ER, if you need help, just call your Anonymous Canonist. He will guide you through the steps. Save the Priesthood God gave you, run away from cynicism and be happy.
Both Bertone and Versaldi have had faxes or emails from me. I have pages and pages of reports in gestation. Do not worry about that.
Pray for my brother Legionaries, please. Do not hate them. They are the Church's inheritance from MM, to be suffered with love and infinite patience. If they are saved (at least taken individually and not as a group), it will be by the faithful, patient and charitable help of laypeople. If I were on one of these schoolboards of an LC school, or simply had a kid (don't worry folks, I don't!) in an LC school, I would check out the local LCs with all fraternal kindness. I would prod them with questions like, "Father/Brother, isn't it true that Maciel was a pederast? Isn't true that Mons Charles Scicluna affirmed that he sexually abused at least 20, perhaps as many as a hundred fellow Legionaries, your brothers?" Then cite Gonzalez's book, p 222, footnote 44 in Spanish, I translate, "It is fitting to cite the expression 'transgenerational cloning' that Mons. Charles Scicluna, visitator sent by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, used speaking with Juan Jose Vaca on Saturday, 2 February 2006, in Manhattan, NYC." Ask, "Father/Brother, do you know what Mons Scicluna meant by 'transgenerational cloning?' It means that Maciel sodomized your brothers, and traumatized them so much, that they too became pederasts. Do you know that pederasty pursues your congregation, and your superiors hide this simple fact from you?" Prod them kindly but insistently with questions that may put into crisis this brainwashing of theirs. Invest a little money, buy books like Gonzalez's, but don't give these to the LCs because they can too easily destroy them and elude the issue. Photocopy pages, show them and put the questions to them.
Hey, RC groups and perseverance teams: how about this as an "apostolic initiative"? I, at least, think it is a worthy one.
Fr Hardon SJ once told a group of us (before I became an LC) that there is nothing more dangerous for the Church than a group of women religious -- so generous of soul, so committed to giving of themselves -- in the hands of a heresy. Well, maybe he was wrong. A congregation of priests may well be more dangerous. In terms of pure human quality, the LCs are top-notch, souls so generous and self-giving that in the wrong hands or reduced to idiots by heresy, they are extraordinarily dangerous. I have no illusions about how good, and therefore how menacing, my confreres are. You can see that for yourselves. If they were not so good and self-giving, they could not have been tricked into this deception and brainwashed as deeply as they are; and they would not be so effective in their missions.
Why don't I just leave them? I don't think it is honorable to abandon them now when they most need the help of their sane members. When I see them healed or suppressed, then I can leave honorably. Do I risk insanity myself? If I am not insane now, I probably will not become so, not by LC "spirituality" or the pitiful psychological abuse that the ridiculous little man Clancy can try to inflict on me, using my brothers as idiot robots to attempt humiliating me. Now that I know what the game is -- shoot, I've mastered the pederast's play book -- it's actually entertaining! Maybe I'll start publishing here so all you can laugh at their antics with me, and at the little prude Clancy, the "Pure [rigid/frigid] One", and possibly we can even help him -- a long shot.
Oremus ad invicem, Edmond Ritter
ER,
I have seen very few expressions (if any!) of hate here on the comboxes for your confreres.
Indeed, I hate none, although I hold the Legion hierarchy in contempt. The peons of the order I feel nothing but sorrow and concern for.
We took our kids out. But before we did, I spoke at length with two LC superiors in positions of authority. Both regurgitated talking points to me---and I hammered away for at least an hour on each one (gently but insistently). I was worn out with the exercise, not to mention completely frustrated. I am afraid the continued hammering of them is an endeavor I do not have the energy for at this point. Besides, I have family members under Legion employ and don't want to put their jobs in jeopardy.
You may not be insane yet, but you will utterly exhaust yourself in your current situation, ER. I hope that you are able to get away from it all so that you can recharge, if only for very brief periods of time (an hour of brisk walk in fresh air, perhaps?). If you don't take care of yourself, you will put yourself at risk of a breakdown---whether physical, mental, emotional, or spiritual.
Edmond Ritter - I am calling you out. You need to leave the LC, period. You are still holding on my brother...fighting against the truth and unwilling to just let go (which is understandable given your life's investment in the LC). Why would you acknowledge "pederasty pursues your congregation" and stay in (no matter what the Vatican does)? Your refusal to leave the Legion does far more harm to those outside and even to those inside LC/RC too. Your self-imposed "martyrdom" by staying in and being persecuted by the brainwashed LC's is not admirable. You have been shown the truth but are blind with eyes wide open staring right at it...frozen, unable to take the necessary action. Just leave the LC and by that example show others the way out of the LC brain washing spiritual prison. Free your brother by example. Now that would be heroic.
- THE_Br._Dan
ER, you might try to contact the Anonymous Canonist: mitchfmsm@netscape.net He might be able to give you some good advice and canonical help if you need it.
ER -
Think THE_BR._Dan has great advice. I am out of RC now and the person that helped me face what my heart and conscience was telling me was Fr. Berg. If he did not take that courageous step and write his letter calling out the hierarchy on this and apologizing for abuse and admitting this was handled wrong - I would have been afraid to speak out. His interview was awesome and gave me more courage to follow what I knew in my heart was true. I was a leader in RC and I left and my heart and conscience are free. Now others are asking me questions and I honestly and charitably share my story of love of the priests and my RC sisters but the conviction that I cannot in good conscience stay with how the LC handled this. Maybe you can be another Fr. Berg and be an example to your fellow priests.
I am heartened by your good will, and your advise is taken seriously. I have one thing you may not consider well enough, and it is that the Pope knows me personally and is being informed. I can wait a little more. The LCs -- the hierarchy -- are showing themselves for what they truly are now, even after the passing of MM. And the Pope will know. Just a little while more. If I disappear over the next week or so, it's because I am busy with reports. God bless, ER
ER - Are you implying that YOU are informing the Pope on the matter? "and it is that the Pope knows me personally and is being informed." That seems odd and suspect especially given the formalities now underway. This calls into questions your authenticity regarding who you are...perhaps I missed that from another post but I am now skeptical.
You will go insane if you over analyze everything I write. I do not care to be believed, if I did I would indeed have an ulterior motive. Here I have in front of me a letter Cardinal Ratzinger wrote me on 26 June 2004. It ends with these words, "Le porgo i migliori auguri per il Suo lavoro filosofico, affinché esso sia benedetto dal Signore e diventi luce per la Chiesa e per gli uomini di buona volontà". That was a fantastic shot in the arm for me then and continues to be for me now. But it is passé now, all the LCs know this and they raise no eyebrows when I show them this letter. Forget the darn letter.
I met with Cardinal Ratzinger in 2004 regarding academic work I was doing. He knows me. He sent me the letter. The LCs know about it. This is old news. When he was cardinal, I bumped into him 2 times on St Peter's Plaza. Once (twice?) he was here in the college. Now that he is Pope it is much more difficult to meet him. No, I do not pretend to be an intimate associate. I do not call at his apartment for a cup of coffee, but I do have name-recognition, I am 95 percent convinced. But none of this is relevant to the topic here. I mentioned this only because it is startling to me that "the Pure One" continues with his campaign of personal destruction EVEN KNOWING full well that all his antics are going to be exposed to full light. It's another confirmation that the old goat is insane. When tweety bird in the old Warner Bros. cartoons mutates into Mr Hyde, Sylvester the cat knows the tables are turned, and he runs. But not the Pure One. His days are numbered, he has become the quarry, and inexplicably he continues attacking me (slandering me before the brothers and fathers, accusing me of God knows what type of sociopathology, a psychiatric basket case) so as to destroy any social and personal relations I might have with my brothers, isolating me absolutely. Now, I know there are LCs on to his game, and LCs who will read this note to you(don't ask me how because I do not know and don´t want to know), and LCs who will start to figure the game out for themselves. They may start to ask, "How is it possible that Fr Edmond is a sociopath for 2 years running and he has never done anything strange? How come the Pope loves his philosophical work so much, and yet the goat keeps saying that he is a psycho? You see, friend, I am not writing just for you but dropping seed that may just germinate in the heads of my brothers, so that they can start to understand that they are being systematically lied to. I am writing to multiple audiences.
God bless, ER
I can hardly believe people are still talking about the possibility of a charism, reconstituting, and similar issues.
The LC-RC is a cover for a criminal operation that abused children, committed financial fraud, and duped people into thinking they are doing something good by furthering this enterprise.
It's like the bad guy in the old TV shows who gets the bungling sheriff talking with the people about some side issue while he jumps on his horse and gets away. That's what we're doing by going on and on about "charism" and "the possibility of refoundation" blah blah blah.
"Charism" has so little relevance in this situation that it isn't even funny. The whole thing is just a big scam -- don't try to dignify it by a discussion of religious topics. It's not about religion. It's about money and power. Religion is just the tool the LC-RC used to pursue its ends (money and power).
As for the poor "victims" within the LC-RC -- this is also a distraction from the main issue of how to get rid of this group. These "victims" have the same remedy as people cheated in other schemes -- to assist the authorities in putting a stop to the wrongdoing and bringing the perpetrators to justice, and to take legal action against LC-RC for cheating them of their money and, in many cases, their lives.
October 2, 2009 3:32 PM - My thoughts and previous posts exactly... Use Civil RICO against this group. Basically, MM used affinity fraud like Bernie Madoff did to the Jewish (all money and country club status worship), MM did to the Catholics (money and his own brainwashed slaves worship).
October 2, 2009 3:41 p.m.
The analogy to Bernie Madoff is an excellent one. I understand that huge amounts of money belonging to philanthropies were lost in the Madoff scheme.
Madoff is in prison, right? That's where criminals belong. Not doing penance by the seashore.
Father Edmond Ritter, your thoughts are well appreciated. I know that being vilified is something difficult to go through. However, it is the "weapons" of those who are afraid of the truth. I know a number of priests who left the Sons of Mary [a group which Peter Vere speaks about], when they left (and before) a smearing campaign began and was even published. They were compared to "puss coming out of an infected wound". It was logical that it be so because if what they were saying was true, that truth was NOT welcomed. So, it was much better to vilify them so that, in the end, people would not even want to listen what these priests had to say. It is the tactic of the Devil of course, who is always afraid of Light ! Remember the old philosophical adage, "Qui qui recipitur ad modum recipientis recipitur". That is what is happening now. They are unable to do otherwise. It is their modus operandi and it is really sad.
Keep up the good work.
Peace !
Joseph Faucher
About Bernie Madoff -- at least he didn't sexually abuse children, like MM and undoubtedly others.
I dedicate these few lines of Saint Paul of the Cross to all who, in leaving a cultish group, have felt embattled and discouraged. In particular I dedicate this to Father E.R.
"Now that the enemies of your soul have gathered about you, the time has come when God wants you to fight, trusting not in yourself but entrusting everything to him. Observe the spirits of the world, the flesh and the devil but never lose heart. Have courage and be of stout heart knowing that with Jesus Christ you shall have to need to fear. You have no need to tremble before anybody. The cross is the way to paradise, but only when it is borne willingly. For now, rest sweetly in the company of your beloved spouse, Jesus. Never worry about hell. Never worry about anything in this world. Never worry about your own flesh but have no doubt that the Lord will allow you to be tempted. He will never abandon you , even though interiorly, in the inferior part of your soul, it may seem you are abandoned..."
Anonymous Canonist
typo... Have courage... Knowing that with Jesus Christ you shall have NO need to fear ! It's late.. time to go to bed !
Anonymous Canonist
Post a Comment